Not Only Understand, But Be That

Sukhendr: You had just said before that you don’t understand what Hunter thinks. … I believe that actually you do understand what we think, better than we understand ourselves—not just what we think “absolute,” but actually what we think in the way which is distorted or wrong. Is that not true?

Swamiji: That’s correct. But provided you speak.

Sukhendr: What is it? The actual words that we say? Or the vibration of what we say? What is it that I say that then you know, “Ah, now I can see what’s wrong with that boy and I can learn where to rub him a little bit.”

Swamiji: No. Such as you are speaking and I am understanding. Now, you cannot figure out what I have understood. But I have understood that whatever you are saying, you are wanting to know something.

Sukhendr: Absolutely.

Swamiji: That’s all. What you want to know, you have not come out yet to say. But I have understood.

Sukhendr: But you already know what I want to say.

Swamiji: That I know. That’s why I’m senior to you. [Laughter] Whatever you want to know, I’ll not tell you.

Sukhendr: Because?

Swamiji: Because you will not do that.

Sukhendr: What do I have to say or do to make you believe that I would do that?

Swamiji: Yes, I want to leak it out. I’ll say that you have the power to examine where you have become “I am Alan.” This you will not do. So then I will not say.

Sukhendr: Why do you say that this I will not do?

Swamiji: Because you are not doing it. You are meditating, but you are not doing this, or inquiring, “Where is my I, which I use daily in my work?”

Sukhendr: So if I sometimes have the sense where I think I actually can see a movement from something which isn’t just Alan—I’ll call it my imagination or maybe it’s my experience—to Alan, is it that I have never actually experienced that?

Swamiji: That you have experienced, that you are that which is not Alan. That consciousness, or the thought, or idea, or awareness has made you Alan, which is not You, that you have understood. But you do not stick to it.

Sukhendr: And I do not stick to it because there is some power that’s missing?

Swamiji: Yes, yes. The power that denies that is stronger. So the power which accepts this is stronger. The denying power of that is stronger, and the power of accepting this is stronger.

Sukhendr: So the means to develop the anti-power is what?

Swamiji: Just reduce this.

Sukhendr: By act of will?

Swamiji: By active will. That power you have. First of all, you have to know that you can do it. Then, that will be your will—active or powerful. Powerful means that you have to know that you have heard me saying that your I has never become this body-Alan. This means you have to accept the fact which I am saying, that you are that which is Me. That Me is known to me. That Me and this me is one and the same. As long as that Me is this me, I love you. But as long as that Me becomes this Alan, becomes your personal I, that me I avoid. I say, “Yes, let it be, it will grow, it will grow.”

Sukhendr: When you say, “Let it grow,” that means?

Swamiji: “Let it grow” means it will be stronger. I say, “Give it up.” But how can you give it up when you are in it?

Sukhendr: But then there’s nothing to do. Either there’s something to do or…

Swamiji: Every single act of your body will become “I am doing,” whereas I is that who never does anything. You have to develop that, that “I’m the one who is Pure Free Forever, not bound, not contaminated, not coloured by things and forms.”

Sukhendr: I understand that; right now in this moment of listening to you, I’ve formed an understanding of that. And to me, it’s a clear understanding.

Swamiji: Very nice.

Sukhendr: But then something must happen that in an hour from now, or a week from now, or a month from now, something will change.

Swamiji: That will be because of the practice—in the waking state, that you have done up to this time. That will come up.

Sukhendr: And the practice which allows the understanding to stay, to be stronger, is what? Is it meditation? Is it just meditation that is going to allow that power to grow stronger?

Swamiji: No. Meditation just helps. It is not all.

Sukhendr: What is all?

Swamiji: All is—suppose I say that you are a buffalo. See, you will not accept this. So how much you have the power to know that “I am not a buffalo.”

Sukhendr: But if meditation is not the means to develop the power…

Swamiji: It is one of the means, as so many things have been means.

Sukhendr: So then, it’s just going to ripen of it’s own accord, just by itself, in a natural evolution of my continuing saadhana [practice]? There’s nothing that I can do?

Swamiji: You have to do meditation. That’s the maximum good. But if you do it right away, then right away is your Knower, or knowledge. And I say the Knower is Pure Free Forever.

Sukhendr: I ask in this way because I’ll say that when I was born I was blessed with a combination of extreme patience and extreme drive—both. But I struggle sometimes with the balance between those two.

Swamiji: Balance is not there. That is what a human being does. When the mind is made, then you try to seek balance. Whereas balance is never there in that which you are. You don’t need balance. You don’t depend on balance. Balance is needed in the practical life that you live, so that you don’t get agitated easily, you don’t get angry easily. If you remain balanced, then this balancing power or emanation will also reflect to others, so they will accommodate you, they will appreciate you, and you will love this balance. But this balance will not release you. Because you are seeking this balance on the level of the mind. And the mind will never become balanced.

Sukhendr: So that balance won’t release me. And there is a power in the nature of the body which continues to create an acceptance of becoming form.

Swamiji: That is natural. So you have to defy it. You don’t have to become natural. Because you are not natural. You are the one who has never become nature, which I even say—to the extent that you are open—that you are never the body. On your birthday, I say that you were not even born. When you were not born, what were you? That you have to identify with. The moment you identify with this body-born, then you have lost that and became part of this body nature. Then there will be birth, death, fear and all kinds of struggle. Here, you’ll have to have balance. This balance also works to a great extent. But you are never released—which is your purpose. You want to be that which you feel is always free from any sense of difficulty, trouble and all that.

I also say this to Jonty, when he sees his child. Now, he’s his son. However hard he’ll try to escape, but he is his son. And I’ll not say to him, “He’s not your son,” because he cannot accept it. He’s the son of God—this he can understand. But he’ll say, “My son is the son of God.” This is where a man is. And it’s not a defect. That’s why I respect every human being. You are alright. But you have to be free from this human aspect that I has ever become the body, or that “I am the body.”

You watch when I analyze and you listen, then you become convinced that “Yeah, I was never the body.” If “I was never the body,” then tomorrow why would you become “I am the body”? This is the no-meditation part: it’s the realization part, that I am That which has never become the body-born. I am that which is bound here, so it’s wanting to be not born again, and to not die again. Birth and death belong to a human being. And you want to be free from that. I say that you want to be free from that, because I know. But you, you think, “I don’t want to be free from birth and death, I like all those things which a human being does.”

Sukhendr: Right. On that point, that activity of the mind which wants, in the most subtle and beautiful way, to imagine the possibility of holding on to some part of a human being which will work with realization…

Swamiji: No. It will not work. …

Sukhendr: In thinking about virtues, yam, niyam…

Swamiji: … As a human being, you have to have all those qualities.

Sukhendr: I’m not talking about as a human being.

Swamiji: Then, you are the Self. And the Self has no such qualities—neither knowledge nor ignorance. That is the description which I say. But that is the description which you don’t want to have.

Sukhendr: My mind will create a nice story or theory which says…

Swamiji: Immediately, I came to know that you are caught. “My mind.” You have to say, “My mind.”

Sukhendr: What else am I going to say? It’s my mind.

Swamiji: But you must know that I will know it, that when you say, “My mind,” I’ll know that you are bound.

Sukhendr: Feel free.

Swamiji: Excuse me, but you’ll not leave me all alone, you will not make me free from that. The moment you say, “I am bound,” you are the mind. When you are the mind, then you will not love that Freedom which I have. You will somehow relish that I should be with your mind. That I mostly do. Because I am with your mind. And I love your mind. I love your intellect. All the virtues that you have, I love them. But then you must conclude that I must say this because I am loving more than what you love yourself. And that’s Me.

Because for me, I see all these figures and forms, but I don’t tell you that I see you as the Self—the Self as a whole, the Paramaatma, the Supreme Self, or Pure Awareness. So I see that you are Pure Awareness, but you see yourself, with your mind, as someone trying to get Pure Awareness—of the concept that you have. This is the human side. And if it’s the human side, then you are the only one who is capable of working for that. …

I keep saying this. Because I have no interest in not saying it. Right? So I keep saying. When I’ll have no interest in saying it, then I’ll not. Then you can conclude, “Why does he say it?” It’s your side, which I’m now going to represent: Why do I say these things to you? The conclusion will be with you that, “Well, he must be loving me, so he wants me to be released.” Because I must be feeling that you are bound, so I am bound; you are bound, so I am bound; you are bound, so I am bound [indicating those in front of him]. How much bondage I have! Only then I can feel that you should be released. If I think you are released, then what will happen? If I am released already and you are released, then this work will not be like this. Then there is no work, because the work is over.

Then the realized one deliberately, if he is alive, only does that which is release. That is our work. Sometimes I say, “Well look, this place is for Brahm Vidya.” Brahm Vidya means the Self-realized state. I give you the meaning: Self is that which is not affected, not influenced by attributes, by sattwagun, rajogun and tamogun. And a human being stands for sattwagun or a little bit of rajogun [virtues and activity]. So he’s a guna man. A human being will say, “I’m active, I do good actions.” I say, “No, you are that who is nishkaam [without action]: the actions of the body and the senses do not reach you.”

So I lead your attention towards that which I know you have the power to do, or to know that I am free from the gunas of nature. I am free from the action of the nature of the body. And I am free from the thinking part: all the thoughts cannot reach Me. I am That. I am free from any kind of colour, or any kind of sense of duality. I am That which can never become modified: I am free from any modification, such as milk can become curd or curd can become butter. These are modifications. But it is not in Me that I have now become a young child, then a grown up, then old, and then death. I am free from that. There is no aakaar, no form. I have no aakaar, the face or form which the mind thinks. So I am formless. I am nameless. Then, what do I remain? I remain nitya, eternal, eternally free from time and space. They do not reach me. That is the Self. What is it? Always totally free, nirmala [pure], which means no sense of otherness ever touches Me. That is the definition of your Me, or the Self which is Me.

Suppose I live that. Then nobody can contaminate me—neither by insult, nor by praises, nor by anything that can allure a human being, neither the fear of death nor the allurement of birth. And a human being is made born and is given the idea that he will die. So his I—which I have just described and which you have understood—has become a human being. So you have to continue checking and examining. That is the work. … You are at a stage that you need this desperately. Because at this time, if you slip, you will go back into that. And if you go forward to That, you are released. That is what we are hoping for. Only we pray to God Almighty that he gives us enough life that we can do it. That’s the whole thing. So when you examine, examine in the light of that which I have said: Me. That is the definition of Me. You can say, “Well, I have understood.” Understanding is not enough. [Laughter] You can understand all the laws of swimming, but you have to be a swimmer. …

What will an agyani [one ignorant of the Self] do? An agyani will say, “I am, and there are many things. I have understood that I am the Space, and the Space has made air, fire, water, and the lokas [dimensions], people, this and that, and these many things.” That is the unrealized agyani’s side. He knows that there are waves, bubbles and whirlpools. But the water’s side is only water. The Self-realized side is only the Self, only Paramaatma, only Sky, only Pure Awareness, only Pure Existence, only Pure Bliss. This you have understood. But whenever the time will come for practical things, you will not do it. You only do that which suits you. That is the agyani’s side. So we are trying to get you to not only understand, but be that. …

Only gold is there. Where is the ring? That much power you have. Self is there. Where is Alan? Where is the ring? So gold and ring, Self and Alan, one and the same. Then, you have attained Oneness. In the light of gold, you’ll be the best ornament. Thank you very much. [Applause]

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