Self Realization Has Nothing to Do
with Two Things—or with Man

Shaarda: … There are things my intellect assumes it knows, which it clearly does not. Realizing this, I wanted to ask you about your song where you wrote, Shabd tyag (“Leave the state of words”). When I hear you in satsang, I don’t have an intellect, I am like a child. I am not commenting inside, there is no thinking going on, it is just direct transmission, Self to Self. As I am not giving meaning and there are no thoughts, there is no shabd and arth (word and meaning). But otherwise there is. So how not to make meaning, how to do shabd tyag?

Swamiji: This is very relevant for a human being to hear, because a human being has become big because of the help of words, which are called shabd, or name. If a human being remains stuck to words, or name, thereby associating with form, then he will always be name and form. A human being has created difficulty for himself, for he thinks that a human being is a pot, and form is the outcome of the pot, or that the intellect-ego-mind and senses are forms which are the outcome of the pot. Thus, he is not able to properly receive information through the words spoken by his elders. His elders, basically his mother and father and all his relations, have always spoken the words of their own language, and thus he became wordy, name-ly, form-ly. All these three things, including his form, became himself, a person.

As long as a human being remains a person with name and form, he will not realize. So if you came to know that you want to realize, then there is no other way except to give up the idea of a human being—who was never there. But the human being thinks he is there. His life only begins with himself as a human child, and then he remains human throughout. Thus, you cannot leave being a human being. You will remain Shaarda, a human being. So when you ask, “How should I give this up?” giving up is not necessary. You have not to accept that you are a human name and form. Then whoever remains is pure intellect, which means Shuddh Chaytan (Pure Consciousness). And Shuddh Chaytan can control anything which the mind says, which the intellect says—that name and form is you. Let us see what you have understood? …[A pause, she does not answer immediately]-

Man hears, but he cannot understand. So there is no chance for a person to know about Self Realization, although he will speak of finite and infinite. He remains at the same place: a finite individual [he points to his body] and a vast infinite [he indicates the space around him]. In this way, he cannot transcend finite and infinite—and both are to be transcended, which means both are to be given up.

Shaarda: The intellect is always seeing things as either this or that. It is either finite or infinite, whereas both of those are constricted forms. Such as my intellect will think of infinite as a vast space, whereas you tell me that the Self has nothing to do with space or time. Infinity is not a vast or endless space compared to a small space, nor is it any concept whatsoever that the intellect can make.

Swamiji: If you say “vast,” you are still making some kind of infinite, small or vast. Self Realization has nothing to do with these two things—or with man. Any philosophy will start with words. And words are the vasana (sense of otherness) of a human being: the acceptance that the body is real, will remain real, and will not die. If a human being is not told, “Man, give up your man”… Guru never says this, because you will never accept it. He knows that nobody can accept he is not born.

You must have seen in our talks with Gyaan Swaroop, he always tried to become a man, and I always said, “Yes, man is essential.” It is for him to conclude what I am saying. I am saying that man is essential, or Gyaan Swaroop is essential. Gyaan Swaroop is not the name of a person—it is the state which is called Self Realization. We began to say this, but it is also not Self Realization, it is also not Gyaan Swaroop. For we say gyan swaroop (the true nature of knowledge) against agyan swarooop (the true nature of ignorance).

All of you, as human beings, are attracted towards freedom. But freedom you never find, because the body is not the field of freedom: it is the body of vasana. Vasana means “The world exists!” “The mind exists!” “Man exists!” [With each statement, he pounds one hand with the other]. Because man can never say, “I do not exist,” so some man has to be told to think and know that the thinking vehicle is not there. But he cannot accept it. Yes?

Shaarda: You said to say what I have understood. The whole field of concepts, words and thoughts are based on a human being, which is vasana, or the sense of otherness. To do thinking, or vichar (inquiry), on that level is not going to work, because then it is Shaarda doing vichar.

Swamiji: Yes, because then Shaarda does vichar. But Shaarda is not unintelligent when she says, “I am asleep.” Why in sleep is there no finite nor infinite? The difficulty will be for a child, who knows “I am born,” and then “I am awake,” “I  am in sleep,” or “I am in a dream.” But all three are not. Yet he knows he was not born. I know that one day he will accept that he was never born. That is why once or twice I told Gyaan Swaroop that man never existed. So he asked, “Then, how did man come?” I said, “Man came because of forgetting that he is always the Ever-Present.” That clicked to him. He shook my hand and went [from the stage] and sat down over there [in the audience]. But now, see the human state of affairs, he was going there on his feet, so how could he say he was not going? To carry the feet, the brain had to come, and the brain is already settled and established in “I am a body, Gyaan Swaroop.” …

You never know who Shaarda is. So we continue preparing you so that you should know who Shaarda is. Shaarda will use her mind or her intellect and will say, “I am a girl. I am born. I am Shaarda. My daddy was this, my mother was that.” This is confined. When she asks, “What is it that I interpret that I am a girl?” why would you not be interpreting this when you die, when you are burned, when you are ashes, when you are mud? The mind does not reach there, so it is called an indescribable state.

When the indescribable is reached, then it is like Aatma Shakti, who has difficulty as she wants to use her mind to describe what state she is in. In an instant, when everything is done and everything is understood, still the mind immediately comes. Why? It is not that it immediately comes: you are the mind. [Laughter] Our elders have said that you are a man. Nowhere has anyone spoken that you are an animal, although the wolf boy is there [a child raised by wolves]. So there is this work for the human intellect. Gyaan Swaroop is going, so his work starts only now, which she said he already chalked out—because he cannot say he is finite when I say that death does not exist.

Listening to Guru, listening to Guru, again and again, that you are Pure Free Forever, it is just possible that someday it will click—when your intellect is purified. So you are the intellect, you developed your intellect, which means you made yourself much worse than Sneh. Sneh, too, has an intellect, but she never thinks she does work by the intellect. She is motivated by the Self—which has nothing to do with a human being. We can only say such things. The rest of it depends on you. If you can know what is being talked about, then the Knower is there—not the intellect.

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The senses and ego-intellect-mind are foreign. They were never there when you were not born. So the whole body is nothing but a foreign land. But we cannot say this, because somebody among you is firmly established in “I am a body.” So, watch. Forty-six years have passed, but anytime you asked, “Swamiji, can I become free from the body?” I said, “No.” I know that the moment I say, “You can be free from the body,” then everybody will think it is wrong.

Shaarda: No.

Swamiji: You can say no to please me at this time, but you will never know that I [he indicates himself] am not the body. Because I speak, you speak; I hear, you hear; I see, you see. Everything, whatever you do, I do.

Shaarda: But I know that you live in my heart and…

Swamiji: She made a heart, and she even made a body for it. [Laughter] This is what is said out of love. Love means it has nothing to do with rag (attachment), with favorability for the body. That is why love does not fall in the category of language. Yet, you say, “In my heart, there is language. In my mind, there is language.” You just cannot leave the body. Whereas you never checked that throughout your life, up to this time, you have never used the body.

Shaarda: It has always been the Knower.

Swamiji: So when I speak, somewhere you come to know “This person knows the same thing which I know. But when I know, I am a Shaarda. So when he knows, why is he not Shaarda?” [Laughter]

Shaarda: One day, you will make it just Shyam (Oneness), Swamiji. In this interaction, it is so much revealed as that.

Swamiji: Well, you say with that hope, as Gyaan Swaroop said, with hope and faith. There is no hope and faith in man—hope and faith have nothing to do with a dead man. But I do not say that you are dead. Whenever I joke, at that time I say, “You seem to be dead, because you don’t understand anything.” [Laughter] That is the situation of a human being. That is why it would be a very, very rare human being who knows. Dan says, “Consciousness is short-circuited.” Listening to Guruji, you are never consciousness [human consciousness, as opposed to Pure Consciousness]. You are ready to listen to the second word that he says. What is it at that moment? “Moment.” Moment is not time. So even the word “moment” is not questioned by man. He says, “There are hours, minutes, seconds, and a part of that is a moment.” The smallest time, he calls a moment. ... You never ask, because your intellect gets shut off. You never ask further about what I am saying. Because you know he will say that the world does not exist.

Shaarda: When you say the world does not exist, it rings completely true.

Swamiji: If it rings complete truth, then you should follow it. Man knows complete truth, but he does not follow it.

Shaarda: So, what is the obstacle? Is it the developed intellect, Swamiji?

Swamiji: It is indescribable. [Laughter] She again wants to use the intellect!

Shaarda: Right, okay. How do you ask a question without using the intellect?

Swamiji: You don’t. [Laughter] Because you have been trained into “Ask, and you shall receive.”

Shaarda: You were just saying that we don’t ask…

Swamiji: No, we don’t. [Laughter]

Shaarda: Okay.

Swamiji: We live together, we eat together, we go together, all that.

Shaarda: I just love when you speak.

Swamiji: This is where love should be given importance—rather than “I and you.” But the attention is always on the body. And it is possible. When Gyaan Swaroop asked, “Is it possible that without the human intellect there could be something?” I answered, “No, man is needed.” What I said was totally wrong. Man is not needed. Which man from a hundred years before is needed now? And you know it. This is the strength that you have. You have always been ever-present Reality. This can be said. But it is not necessary that I should describe it. Why? You know Ever-Present.

Everybody will know now that there is somewhere, something which is not happening to a professor, a writer, a historian, a geographer, a mathematician and a satellite creator. This, you can know. If you know this, how great you are—and how small you feel. You say, “I cannot send a satellite into space, but they can do it.” A bunch of students get together and send a satellite into space, and it becomes a very great thing. The satellite goes on and on and [he demonstrates a satellite falling out of orbit]. The same thing is for a human being, who is a satellite. And you think that is the highest!

Sometimes we say—not sometimes, every day—we say “Pure Free Forever you are.” But Shaarda hears. So Pure Free Forever is not heard.

Shaarda: So knowing that is giving up words.

Swamiji: Yes.

Shaarda: Thank you so much, Swamiji.

Swamiji: Thank you. …