Kritarth (Kim): At one point you said of me "She says 'infinite',
but written all over is 'finite'." I wanted to ask you what you meant
Swami-ji: If you say 'mountain' and see only the sand particles
all over it, but not the mountain itselfthats what I meant.
It means that while you say infinite, you still call yourself
individual and others individual, and not only with respect to persons,
but individual objects and individual forms as well.
You say 'infinite.' You say 'garden.' Yet you keep giving
numbers and names to each of the flowers
Kritarth: I have a real desire to be able to say 'infinite' and be the
infinite. Even though inside I am an individualfiniteoutside
there is the desire to be the infinite.
Swami-ji: So then make the individual infinite and call it infinite.
Then it will be the infinite voice and not the individual.
Infinite you are already
Who is it who speaks? Who is it who says I have a desire to
call the infinite 'infinite?' It is not the voice of a little flesh contained
within your ribs. It is the same infinite. So if you know this, there is nothing
to figure out. You just know it and call it infinite.
Infinite is infinite. People such as mathematicians might know something
about the word 'infinite' and what it is. But the word 'infinite' is used
as being opposite to 'finite.' So it is not really infinite. Because infinite
is by itself. It doesn't need any polaritygood or bad, small or bigto
Finite is seeing the particles of sand instead of seeing the
Seeing you, Kim, we cannot say "America." Seeing
America, we cannot say "world." Seeing world, we cannot say it's the
Infinite you are already. And even before you uttered the
word 'infinite,' you were that.
Let someone say you are finite or let someone say you are
infinite: You are neither of them. That is infinite.
Kritarth: If I try to know infinite with my mind, I just can't
get it. But if I feel it, then I can say I have infinite appreciation for
you or infinite love for you . . .
Swami-ji: Those are just words that we use. You do not have
infinite love or appreciation for me. You are me. There is
Jumping from the finite to the infinite
If a wave says to the Atlantic Ocean, "I have infinite
love for you," it is really wanting to say, "I am you." But when
using language, there is no way to say 'I' so that the ocean is able to hear.
The ocean has no way to hear just I, so it has to say 'you'
Somebody said to me, "Guru-ji, I like to listen to you,
but I want to keep myself as 'I am' so that I can listen to you."
I said there is no harm, because both are 'I am.'
Keep knowing that there is no duality. There are no two persons.
There are no finite particles. It it is all one mountain. There are no finite
objects. Its one sky. There are no five tattwas. Its all Me.
So if you give the name Me to the sky, the sky
does not feel small, and Me does not feel big, because there is no
difference, no duality.
That's our target And if you have reached there, Dikpal can
give you a certificate! [Laughter]
So this is infinite and finite. They are just words in the
language of human beings. And human beings can only evolve human language.
If this were the world of horses, and one of the horses came
to know infinite, he would not say the word 'infinite' hed say, "Hmmmh!" [Swami-ji
makes a whinny sounduproarious laughter] And all the horses would come
to know because it is not the horse that speaks, it is the infinite.
I hear words, but I never, never grasp that it is your body
speaking or your mind speaking or your tongue speakingits always
Having reached that state, you use any words. They
are all the expression of that state.
There is no way to jump from the finite to the infinite except through
using the Knower. I do not say Knower is infinite, because your Knower
is always at the back of your forehead, so it is always finite.
But if I is written and you leave it somewhere,
millions of people will come and pick it up. And it will always be 'I.' Millions
of particles or leaves of the tree will come and pick up 'I' and they will all
And you as a human being will say, "Oh, these many
individuals are kept in this I." Or people will say, "These
many children are God's children."
If such thoughts makes people love each other, then use the
language. But that doesnt solve the problem. You are trying to know infinity.
But if infinity turns out to be infinity, there is nothing to know.
You, as a human being, have an opportunity in this body to
use your tongue, to use your conceptual knowledge, which is based on ahankar (ego).
But you don't have to worry about infinity to know you. Infinity knows infinity.
The word ahankar or ego is used in two wayscosmic
ego and human ego. You have to see that whenever you say "I am" there
are two spaces involved in itconscious (chaytan) and unconscious
(jhar), or 'I am.' 'I am' is this bodyjharbut the
one who says 'I am' is the conscious part. Your jhar-mind does not reach
So in the human form, we use the language because thats
the only medium we have to know things. We know things, we know forms, we know
situations, we know emotions, we know all that which is on the Discovery Channel
or the National Geographic Channel. All kinds of things are being known and given
names. But that which 'is' and never amthat is infinite. If
you say 'I am,' that is finite, which means it changes. But that is never
Who knows this? That is infinity.
Kritarth: Thank you Swami-ji.
The blessings of this incarnation
Swami-ji: Yesterday, the girls (Swami-ji's daughters) were
reading Gita verses at Akhileshs (Swami-ji's son), and Champa
and Chameli [two dogs] were there. One came and sat on my toes and
enjoyed. That shows that the Knower is everywhereit is said
even in dogs or birds. In the company of the realized one, all get
So it is not only the human incarnation that is supposed to
be the key or the basis of realization. Even trees, birds, dogswhoever
is with youget realized in this incarnation.
That is the power and blessings of this incarnation.
'I am' versus 'is'
Dikpal: Recently, Swami-ji has been using the phrase 'I am' as
a synonym for 'ego.' I find that very interesting because what we are trying
to do is to realize the Self, and the word for Self is 'I'. So the idea
that 'I am' is ego, which means that it is an obstruction, and the idea
that what I am trying to realize is the 'I,' makes me think a lot.
What I am guessing, Swami-ji is that when you say 'I am' you
are meaning 'I am' with something after it, such as 'I am body' or 'I am man'
or 'I am something,' because the sense of 'I am' without any object after it
is the sense of existing, and existence is what we are. And I wanted to ask you
Swami-ji: I am became existent but in deep sleep it
was nothing that we could perceive. 'I am' will arise only when something
else is going to be, like 'body,' or 'happiness' or 'unhappiness' or 'rich'
or 'poor,' to which I am will be associated. In the light of
that, 'I am' comes.
Dikpal: I would describe 'I am' as signifying a state of consciousness.
Swami-ji: So then it stands for somethingthat which it signifies.
At that point, it becomes two. We use words for those people who are full
of I am. When I am comes, the phrase signifies
that Self appears to have forgotten itself. Then it sys, "I am ready
to realize the Self." Otherwise, it will always be 'is.' Otherwise,
why does the Self have to realize the Self?
Dikpal: So then the sense or awareness of 'I is' . . .
Swami-ji: I will never say 'I is,' because 'is' is first. Out of
'is,' this 'I' is built. The moment I is built, I became seen
(object), and is became seer or drishta. So drishta,
drishti and drisht (seer, seen, seeing) is the human trio through
which concepts are made. Whatever is free from this trio is existence.
There, we don't say "I am."
It can be understood. You have understood. Thats enough.
That is realization.
But now, because your intellect is not certain that you have
realized this, it will try to find ways to describe that which is. It may say
'is' is existence or 'is' is consciousness. But then you are not saying anything,
because consciousness or existence is not a table, is not an umbrella. Existence
means is. Consciousness means is. Is means
existence. Is means consciousness. If at all we give meaning to this
it is because we use words and language and, through words, we have come to know
that this body exists
But existence doesnt need to know that I am.
Thats why it is mukt, freedom. Otherwise it will remain bound forever.
What kind of 'I am' (are you referring to)?
Dikpal: Unqualified 'I am.'
Swami-ji: You are convincing me, or what? [Laughter]
When you say 'unqualified, again you are qualifying.
I am neither qualified nor unqualified. You are using the same tool to define
that which is achint, that which cannot be brought about through thinking.
Thinking gives concepts and a concept is made when you are I. In
deep sleep you never make a concept, yet in deep sleep you still are. This is
called the unqualified state and you understand it. But we don't need to describe
that, because it is indescribable.
It is not that we cannot talk about it. But suppose you come
you know, why would you then struggle to describe it when you find you will never
be able to describe it?
When it is reached, there is no question remaining that needs
Dikpal: Thank you very much.
Connecting the intellect to the Source
Bhakti Bhaavana: You said at one point that jeev aatma (individual
consciousness) gets separated from the intellect. I wanted to ask you about
Swami-ji: In the dark night you do not see things. That means you do
not know things. Suppose in the night, a guest comes and the electricity is
off. He will not see where the window is, where the kitchen is. It is pitch
dark. That means no knowledge of your house will take place. So knowledge and
light are very similar for the purpose of dealing with things and forms. So
if things and forms are to be known, sun is needed, light is needed.
So how do you know about your body if sun is not there, lamp
is not there, torch is not there? But you do know the body, so that 'I am' must
be lightthe light that sees the intellect and gives intellect light of
its own. So intellect become light. And that light is then carried to mind and
mind in turn gives that light to the senses. Senses become lit and come to know
the things and forms.
It is the light of 'I am' or jeev aatma. Without
light, a dead body has no intellect. So we come to know then that we all have jeev
aatma. We don't see it, because it doesn't have any form. But it is there
as Knower and knowingness.
As long as that 'I am' is in the body, it is not dead. When
'I am' is not connected, then slowly, like a tree whose root is cut off, the
leaves fruit and branches all become dry. So if the intellect is not connected
to the root, it may appear to be functioning, but it is not really understanding
So we have found the way of getting your intellect connected
to the root, the source of 'I am,' and 'I am' connected to the light, the consciousness.
The essence of enlightenment
Knower is that Self which is beyond all states of consciousness. When that
light is known, then it is all light. And that is called 'enlightened.'
Your individual consciousness is to be taken and fixed in
the heart of God.