That Which You Think Is the Mind Does Not Exist

Shaarda: You had said that the Watcher is not that which is going to realize and …[since the mind cannot realize] I couldn’t understand what you meant.

Swamiji: Yes. I had said that the Watcher is the Self. Did you not hear that?

Shaarda: Then, what is it that realizes, if it is not the Self?

Swamiji: That which is not the Watcher.

Shaarda: Which is?

Swamiji: Which is what?

Shaarda: I don’t know.

Swamiji: Which is the body. A dead body! Why would a dead body realize anything? [Laughter.]

Dikpal [from the audience]: A live body.

Swamiji: A live body. Then Life realizes.

Shaarda: How is Life different from the Watcher?

Swamiji: If Life and the Watcher are just the same, then why do you ask me? You understand they are not different. Life and the Watcher are just the same.

Shaarda: So then why is it that by your realizing the Self not everyone else in the world also experiences Self Realization?

Swamiji: Who says that I am realized? You have made me realized. [Laughter.] You say that I have realized; I have never said that I have realized. Your subject is Realization, and I share it with you because we are all experimenters together. We are experimenters, and I am one of the senior members, that’s all. [Laughter.]

Shaarda: You never divide anywhere. You live a state of Indivisibility.

Swamiji: If I do not divide, that is why you have put me here [pointing to his seat] …Then, what is your question? She has introduced me saying that I do not divide. Alright. I accept it. But now what?

Shaarda: But the rest of humanity divides.

Swamiji: Look, humanity! [Laughter.] The rest of humanity! Who bothers…

Shaarda: I divide. I divide.

Swamiji: You divide. Then continue doing it. [Laughter.] If you divide, then why do you divide? Why should I ask you about it? I’m not going to question you—because you are Perfect.

Shaarda: Through asking this question, I would like to purify the state of division in my own understanding by grasping exactly what it is that realizes. Because I think that the mind can’t realize, it doesn’t seem capable; and for the Self, there is no bondage, no liberation, no realization—it’s just Free. So then there is something that seems to happen, as when you had described how when you were in Canada…

Swamiji: I have described all history. I have described the way that Bhakti Nath had described [the Mahaabhaarat, earlier in a speech]. I have never met anything on earth. This she does not consider. This is not my description for her. She says, "You said this on that day. You said that on that day." And I say, "I am not born." Is that not my introduction?... So if I am not born, then why would you like to give me a name, seeing that that person is born?

Shaarda: Then I’ll make it very personal: I am wanting to purify my own sense of division, which creates pain inside of me, so that I can live a state free from it—which I have understood Realization to be.

Swamiji: That’s alright. This is the right type of beginning, which we can talk on. Such as you say that it gives you pain, worry, or thinking. Then what is that in you which causes you pain?

Shaarda: Believing in the mind, in whatever the mind is saying.

Swamiji: If you are believing in the mind and if that is correct, then you should not believe in it. If you think, "That gives me pain," why would you believe such a person or being who gives you pain? You should not believe in it.

Shaarda: Right. So if I am understanding that part of that process, to disbelieve in the mind, is to know my Self…

Swamiji: Yes, that’s where I say that You are never part of a process. You are I. I is not in time. I is not in space. I is not on the road. I is not in the process of a journey. I is not in the process of making itself a machine. So I is never in the process. Thus I is never going to be affected by the fast speed or the slow speed of the process. If you know this—when I say that your I is not in the process—then the answer from my side is over and your turn comes.

Shaarda: Then I understand that since I am never in the process, then using the idea of Realization—which would be a process resulting in something as if—is not even accurate, or applicable to Me. Therefore, it’s not something that I need to explore further. Is that correct?

Swamiji: But why would you do this exploration of Realization?

Shaarda: [The tape side ends. But she had said something like, "I thought that by exploring Realization, I could see where I was acting on the basis of the Self and where I was acting on the basis of the bondage of the intellect.]

Swamiji: …because the intellect is part of this side—of existence, forms, and the form of a human being. You have to explore that which is not part of the intellect. For that, first you are using your body, and then your senses and mind. If you are using your mind for that process, then why would you not accept that it is the mind who is not realizing and so it is seeking, and that it is the mind which will realize when it is found? The answer is now complete: it is the mind who realizes. Why? It has not realized up to this time. If it is the mind that realizes, then you have the answer. Now that I am saying this, you cannot check it and say, "Swamiji, you had told me one day that the mind cannot realize." You expressed something very nicely, that "It is the mind which wants to be interested in the process, and I want to know Freedom because I feel bondage." You feel bondage, but you have never felt Free. So you are only talking in bondage. You are viewing that bondage will not be and then Freedom will come, as if the night will not be and then day will come. This is the process in which you will never get clear.

Shaarda: So what would be the process in which I will get clear?

Swamiji: It is not a matter of one question and answer. It is not a carrot or a radish that you can buy! [Laughter.] What’s the process! You are in the process for these many years. If you did not know this, then why would you continue over here?

Shaarda: Then what I am understanding is that that which is always Free, which is not in a process, which is not to be attained, that is who I am, and that is what I have to explore.

Swamiji: No. If that is what you are and if that is what you have to explore, then why do you struggle—when you know that that is what I am?

Shaarda: I want to stretch my understanding to the deepest through interacting with you.

Swamiji: Look, your body will be just like this, it will never be stretched more than this. Your mind will be like this, it will never be stretched. Your understanding is only this, it will never be stretched; and when you will sleep, it will not even remain this. So why do you think that your understanding will be expanded? Suppose you are seeing a baby. How would you make the baby understand a Poo bear when he is a baby? Tell me.

Shaarda: Through the repetition of the experience.

Swamiji: But he is a baby. Repetition of experience! You can show him the Poo bear again and again, and he is sitting like this. [He looks blankly. Laughter.]

Shaarda: It’s impossible then, at that stage.

Swamiji: That’s all. He’s not grown up. The baby is not a grown up. So if you are not grown up, you will never understand the Self—call it Realization or call it understanding. But if you are not grown up, then what is essential? That babyhood should not remain there. For that, you are studying and using your tool; you are using your body, senses, books, mind, and all that. Now, you have to check: Do you understand that when deep sleep comes, you never know? How would you expand your understanding to know deep sleep?

Shaarda: You can’t. It’s impossible.

Swamiji: If it’s impossible, then why should I answer your question? And I had only said the third state, deep sleep, I haven’t yet said the fourth state. If you have declared it to be impossible, then you have closed the door.

Shaarda: OK. Then how do I come to know deep sleep?

Swamiji: Remain awake. [Laughter.] Why would you like to sleep? But you never do it.

Shaarda: Because you had said that I’ve closed the door and have made it impossible, so I don’t want to make it impossible.

Swamiji: Then I am saying that I am the one who is giving you a technique. I say, "You should not sleep." That you can do, provided you know that you have the power. As you have been told that sleep is a must, so you have accepted that sleep is a must. Then I’ll not speak of sleep, because you can understand sleep. How does a dream arise? Tell me.

Shaarda: It’s a mystery to me. It just appears in my head and I watch it.

Swamiji: If the mystery is to be understood and opened, then you have to know that dreams never arise. But you are not going to accept this.

Shaarda: I accept it.

Swamiji: That’s all. Dreams do not arise, so you will not talk about your dream. You will see the dream, but you will never believe in it. You will never know that the dream exists. It’s not a question of your giving it up or surrendering it: the dream does not exist. You have understood now. Now, what happened? Has it not been expanded? So if the intellect expanded to know that the dream does not exist, dream figures do not exist, and the dreamer does not exist, now comes the question which I will ask: What is that with which you say that the dream exists?

Shaarda: The waking state divided intellect says that.

Swamiji: The waking state is not there, a dream is there. And in the dream you are saying that it’s a dream. Then I say that the dream does not exist, because I took the side of the Self. So the Self is—but you say that it is a dream. I say that you are the Self—but you say that you are Shaarda. I say that you are the Self—but you say that no, they are these many people. So you are having the state of a dream, and that is to be awakened from this dream. That is what our job is daily. We are saying, Jaago jaago, dwaar tumhaaray aa-ay Bhagawaan. [The chorus of one of Swamiji’s recent songs: Wake up, wake up! God has come to your door!]" I’m saying, "Wake up!!" You are saying, "Everything is fine. I have surrendered to You completely. I have given You everything. But for God’s sake, this sleep—let me have some. Don’t wake me up." That is what you are. And say you, "What should I do?" Just wake up, and know that all that which you think is the mind does not exist. You will not worry about who says what. At that moment, you became Free. And in that, you are also included—that "you" about which you say "I am." Whatever it feels, whatever it knows, that is also not correct. Then, whatever remains, that is the Self, that is Being. Identify with That. So people listen to me, or you listen to me, but you don’t identify with Pure, Free, Forever. At least I have this very simple formula for you, that you are Pure, Free, Forever. But unless you identify… You will say, "My mind does not work, my intellect does not identify with it, and I cannot identify with it." Then, don’t worry about it.

Shaarda: I’m Pure, Free, Forever, Swamiji.

Swamiji: Thank you. … So, close your eyes. She has said, "I’m Pure, Free, and Forever." That with which she has said, "I’m Pure, Free, Forever" is the Self. But if that is not being identified with, then that with which it’s not being identified is called the mind. We, as human beings, go with this system according to our capacity of understanding. Whatever strength our system has, we go with it. You will come to know—which means, when the expansion of this human body or mind will take place—that "I actually am not able to understand it." Then you will start inquiring about that which comes to your head. But you have never found time to inquire. You have been accustomed to listen. One or two persons inquire about something, receive answers, whether full or not, and you share with this. Gil had come and talked. Not many people heard what he had said, although he had talked. I heard him. You did not get it. I got what he said.

I am saying that you are happy or easy in the process of growth. For so many years you have been expanded so much. But this expansion is still not so complete that you should know that all the letters are nothing but ink, that all the sentences and meanings are nothing but somebody’s expression of mind. Thus you read the mind’s expression and your mind gets in harmony with it and becomes interested—because it is the mind, and that is a human being.

A human being’s mind wants to know what Liberation is, which means, what I is. If he had known this, what I is, then he would have never sought for it—through teachings, books, studies, and all that. I appreciate and recommend this, and I understand that that is where the baby has grown up and become bigger, become bigger, become bigger. But then, slowly and slowly, you are losing the capacity to exercise further. When you have lost the capacity, then you do not want to exert, because you get uneasy, feel trouble, and do not even want to repeat that which is the formula. You have discarded it saying, "The formula does not work. Give me a history book."

The formula is Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum. You never talk on this subject, on what Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum is: why it has become the mantra, what its value is, with what sound it has come out, and who says it. All this is part of your study. If you do not exercise, if you do not initiate, treat it that you are holding your knowledge that this body is true, living, and will live forever, that this body is the means for your joy, just as it has been declared that it is the means for your pain and suffering. That is the standard consciousness with which I am dealing. I have enough patience to see you growing, expanding, and reaching that state where you have come to know that I am Pure, Free, Forever. Now, having said this or expressed it, you will not be saying that "I am miserable," or "I am upset," or "I want to understand. I have not understood it because up to this time I have been uninterested, so I would like to be interested. I want to know the experiment," and all such things.

When you know I am Pure, Free, Forever, then you have realized the I. After that, you will see how this I guides you, through this mind and intellect, through these eyes and body. That is the only tool in the hands of the Self. The Self is not a person, so there is no language in words to describe it. The tongue does not reach over there. So we use our tongue, our minds, or whatever understanding we have, just to express ourselves. Then we remain free in a space to know that I am Pure, Free, and Forever. Then you are never afraid. Fearlessness means no division, which means Pure. That is Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum. Repeat it. Get the knowledge of it. As much as you have repeated it, analyzed it, and come to grasp it again and again, that became your knowledge.

Some of the scientists sitting over here know how H₂O makes water. But those who have never made it will just hear this, and, like me, will also say that H₂O makes water. Thus Self Realization is a word, an advertisement, which has gone round the world. People started harmonizing with it and then have said, "Let me see what the awareness of the Self does." Here, at this time when you are meditating, neither can you speak, nor can you inquire, nor do you get the answer. When I am meditating and I know the whole process of it, the mechanism of it, the layers of it, so I keep speaking about it, so that anything which goes in your ears may reach that Being which is Pure and Free just now, for which there is no language. Many people say, "I want to understand it." If you want to understand it, why don’t you meditate? Those who have meditated have realized it, let alone understood. This remains ever the same. [Meditation.]