(Poornta): This question is definitely from the 'small Irma state,'
but I would like to be freed of it and you are the person that can do
that for me.
A small drama happened in the last week or two that began
when I decided that, when I go back to the West, I would get another computer.
So I gave the one I have to Leela. When I discovered the price of the new
one, I decided I couldn't afford it so I told Leela she couldn't have the computer
after all and took it back. Then I felt very badly, so I gave the computer back
again to Leela.
Leela was very gracious with all of these changes. But it
seemed to me that the issue was a much deeper one than simply the computer. It
seemed to me that I felt like a greedy person if I didn't give it to her, on
the other hand the incident left me with a feeling of tightness and contraction.
I understand that if I think in terms of oneness, I wouldn't
be separate from Leela or anybody, but I would like to have the state . . .
Swami Shyam: That You, who is pure, has, he himself, made the
Irma body, the Leela body, and placed in them its own powerconsciousness.
But that consciousness has become mixed with the idea that 'I am Irma,' or
'I am Leela.' At that time, the free being is said to have forgotten its own
true nature and has superimposed on itself the notion that 'I am Irma.'
How did it become real?
That 'I am Irma' (that individual consciousness) has to use
that consciousness to remain wise for protecting herself, her body, her food,
her house, her money, and for the sake of carrying on in this body.
This is the nature of the Self and it is in no way a defect
in you at all. So when you act, it is called wisdomrelative wisdomand
many people don't have that. In relation to that, you take decisions, and other
people, like Leela, will also take decisions. But they have their own 'I' and
they are also acting with the consciousness of their self interest, and trying
not to let anybody know that they are like that.
Therefore, there is a great confusion within each person's
'I' in trying to understand another person's 'I,' and there is no way for this
'I' to get opened or to have a door and get access to the Self, to the Supreme.
But you and Leela are not both 'I'sfor me, you are the
So when I answer, I'll know this fact.
What happened about the computer? In an instant, my attention will be
at that state where there was never any computer. Even for you, at one
time, there was no computer. Now, computer came.
How is that the computer became real for you? And from where
did the hope get built that, through the computer, you would get some knowledge
for your happiness and fulfillment?
It is the Being himself who is Irma. He, with his freedom
and awareness knows what he has done to become an Irma, and knows in what way
he has grown as an Irma, first becoming a little girl, having those thoughts,
doing her schooling and education, then getting married and having children and
Irma's mind does not know this fact. But I know this fact.
Having known that, for me, Irma is that same Being, and it is the same Being's
Leela, or sport which emanates from the 'I' consciousness.
And it is just a sport. You have nothing to do with
it. After some time, you'll even forget about it.
So the sport is there. You are playing it well. And playing
it well for your victory. And victory is in your head for Irma's sake and for
Leela's sake. You know the fact, or hear me saying it, that you have never been
this dream-figure Irma. It was always pure consciousness, which I call 'Self'
or only 'pure.'
Just by hearing the word, something happens and you come to
know, just as when you hear water, something happens to your head and you begin
to feel thirsty.
In this way, all human beings appear to be bound entities,
or individual existences, but their root, their source is pure consciousness.
Now pure consciousness, they don't see because their intellect
is so blocked, so fixed in the sense of duality.
Pure consciousness is Space but now, pure consciousness has
become body. And people are unable to know how it happened. Some may know about
DNA and how that has made people manifest, but before DNA, it was nothing but
pure Space, pure consciousness, pure existence.
So how did it happen that it became Irma? I still hold the
same Space. And Irma exists to me as a tree, which was the power in the seed.
That power in the seed is your true nature. This power is called chaytan consciousness,
but I gave a name to itSelf.
Some people who have no clue of it give it another namemiracle.
Suppose some persons begin to weep and cry when their loved ones have Alzheimer's
and can no longer speak or walk. But if they somehow begin to speak again and
walk again, it is called a miracle.
People may call this a miracle. I call it Self.
There are two powers in this individual 'I'covering power (aavaran)
and constructing or projecting power (vikshayp).
Working from where you are
So the 'I' oozes out a power which says that now I am
an individual, or Irma, and that Space is not. This is a human being. And who
is now superimposed on that Space? Irma is.
But Irma was never there.
This is not known by a human being. So even if I reveal it
and tell people, only the genius to whom the grace has been given can grasp and
Now you have come to know that in reality, you are neither miser
nor unwise, nor was there a computer. So how could you be called a miser in relation
to the buying and selling of a computer?
It is not your true nature. And you know it! And that's why
you are seeking what to do to have perfect freedom. Perfect freedom we will have
when the knowledge comes that 'I is not,' and that there is only awareness. It
is awareness pure: no raag (attraction) no dwaysh (repulsion),
no love, no hatred, no jealously, no miserliness, no richness, no generosityabsolutely
nothing, because 'I' is not there.
As long as 'I' is there, you will negate Self and you will
never say that some power exists of which I am.
Perhaps because other people or out of courtesy, you will
say, 'Well look, I do not know, but there must be some power.' But for you it
is just a guess.
Since you are never in full belief or trust, you will say
that Self'That'is not there. And I will harmonize with you, because
you have not seen 'That' and you will think I have not seen 'That' either. But
luckily I, in this body, have seen 'That.' I have a direct experience,
suppose, of how 'That' appeared and manifested in all the DNAs, in all the forms,
in all the sands, in all the mountains, in all the stars, in all the light and
in all the states of consciousness.
And what would I do, having that direct experience, except
keep having it?
But people have no trust or no belief in their intellect.
It will be expanded!
Whatever belief you have in your intellect, that forms the
stage for my working with you. And from that stage, I keep cracking it.
So, for example, you should develop some space to know
that you have no power in your 'I' consciousness to save a relative or someone
from becoming sick.
And if your relations take up with different people, God knows
what happened to them. This 'God knows' phrase helps me, because you believe
in it. Which means you don't know. When you don't know, you are a human
being, and you will remain a human being unless you are open to the idea that,
yes, God knows everything because he alone is.
But we as human beings are given only that much power to be
able to decide things such as 'I don't like this' or 'I do like that,' or 'I
don't like miserliness' and 'I do like generosity.'
If you like generosity, then you will not like a miserly person.
When you die, all your money will remain in the bank. Yet, you think it is yours.
This is a human being. I say again and again, 'Look you are a human being and
you are facing this. You should not remain human being.'
But you have to remain a human being. Why? Because in the
morning, your 'I' comes. Call it consciousness. Call it sanity. Call it scientific
knowledge. It comes daily.
This 'I' is there, and you want to keep it for the purpose
of knowing whether you are a miser or not. So whatever comes, it is all right.
So human beings have been given very meagre power of understanding, but
you want to expand that power.
Always, always remember
It will be expanded, slowly, gradually: in this incarnation
this much; in the next incarnation, more; and in the next incarnation, you will
become the best.
God has made each individual out of himself. And know, as a human being, that
he has given the power to you to become God againto become Self againto
become Space again.
Whatever word I use that pleases you, you want to be free.
Free means being neither miserly nor generous. At the moment 'I' came, generosity
and non-generosity also came. When 'I' is not thereSpace! That is called
You can get away from this 'I.' You have not to work too hard.
You never existed at one time, you know it! So what happened to you that you
forgot? What happened to you that you superimposed on yourself 'I am mother'
and 'they are my children?'
This 'I' you have to check.
You say, 'I feel miserly,' but you never feel miserly in deep
sleep. You never remember your computer at that time. You will never remember
this talk. But it is good that all this is happening to you for the purpose of
taking the initiative of becoming free, and asking Swami-ji if he knows anything
Yes, he knows.
You were before birth as you will be after death. After death
you know what you will be. Space! You don't have to care what you will be. But
you will not be this body. So you are not this already.
And now you tell me: what happened that at one time you became
a little child and now, in the present, you have become this? Where did the present
ad the past and the future come form? These are English words. There is no such
thing as pastif you add an 'e' to it, it becomes 'paste'. [Laughter] And
there is no such thing as presentif you delete 't' and add 'ce,' it becomes
In this way, you are never, never a form, never, never Irma.
And since I know, I am hoping that you might also know. Who knows? That one which
is God within. I can't use the word 'God' because you never trust it.
But I teach you or tell you or inform you that, no matter
where you areyou are Space. When you close the eyes, you see the Space.
At that time, you never see the body.
But the waking-state, ego consciousness of a human being is
so crystallized We have to go slowly and with patience. However long it
takes and however hard it is.
Space cannot be touched by the idea of miser or not miser.
And I never have seen any miserliness in you. When Puratan (Irma's son) needed
something, you gave. When Tripura (Irma's daughter) needed, you gave. Why do
you want to call yourself a small, little girl? You are sky! You are infinite!
Hold this and do your job. And count your days. And
then you are no more miser.
But this superimpositionthis tortoisethinks he
is in danger. Whenever danger comes, he takes all his limbs inside, begins to
meditate and becomes free from danger. Do the same thing!
You have come over here to meditate. But you hate meditation
[Laughter]. Yet, somewhere you thought it would beneficial to you.
If miserliness is beneficial to you, it is wisdom. You save
your money. Leela doesn't need the computer. She is just counting her days to
die. [Laughter] Thirty years she has been here. Shetheyhave all come
to know that they are Space and that the body is the best tool they have for
this purpose, so they look after it.
And the same thing I will tell you: you should always, always remember
what I have saidyou are Space. There is not even any need to say
'you are' or 'I am.' Just 'Space!'
Grow in I-lessness
And from Space, you become Irma in the morning. Just that.
And check in your 'I' what 'I' has been madewhat saanskar. It
is as if somebody else entered your head and you began to talk like somebody
This is our existencepure and free. These two words
I have been using and will continue using. And I am letting you know that you
should also use them for everyone. Nobody will be able to contradict because
every human being knows that he is pure and he is free. At least he wants that.
Therefore through this language, you will become de-identified or de-superimposed,
and you will be pure Space. Then there will be no I, no you, no Leela.
More than this, it's just a talk. Just filling the space and
capturing your 'I's attention so that the 'I' should not again become 'I' when
you leave here.
People are so truly established in their identification of 'I', it's as
if 'I' is supposed to understand everything.
But you are seeing that the 'I' cannot do all that which it
wanted. It has no power.
Continue with your 'I.' You are growing with that. But grow
in 'I-lessness,' 'mind-lessness,' 'body-lessness'which means 'Space.'
In Space there is nothing. But when you become Irma, you become
useful as someone for me to talk to. Otherwise, if you are not Irma, to whom
am I talking?
So, you are made like this and you opened your heart and mind
and felt good with the idea that, just possibly, something will happen in you.
And something has happened in you if you remember that you are Space,
computer or no computer. You were Space before you bought it. You are Space even
when you have it. You will remain Space even when you give it or sell it.
We have changed in our understanding. And you cannot defy
and be unfaithful to your understanding which means to your God, to your Self.
It is you! You cannot say you are not that.
If your mother could order you to be happy, she would do it.
So listen to the order of the Almighty, the Self. Those who listen to it change.
That is called knowledge.
Knowledge is sun. Sun shines, and never says, 'I am clouded.'
But when sun manifests its own cloud, gets covered, and then weeps, thinking
that it has lost the power of shining, nobody can do anything, Guru or no Guru.
So you should know that you are forever sunshine.
This has been very, very good happening that you are here,
that you can manage over here, and when you go there (to the West), remain Space.
What did you get after I said all of this?
Irma: I have a very full feeling inside me which I think is what
I wanted. And I really understood that if I can stand in the place of the
observer watching the play between Irma, between Leela, between whoever,
and just let the play happen and enjoy it without being it, then I am fine.
Thank you. I knew that I would get a perfect answer, but I don't think
I knew how perfect I was going to feel.
Swami-ji: That's the beauty of it. It's all scripture. You don't
get what I speak, only that Swami-ji speaks. That goes on the Internet.
That goes on the tape. Tapes are not going to be knowledgeable. Film is
not going to be knowledgeable. But you daily think that they will make
you knowledgeable. But hundreds of hoursthousands of hourshave
not made you knowledgeable. Your libraries are full!
I am pure and I am free!
Powerful persons, they understand what I say and can
understand it forever. So this is the challenge: to work against the power of
your 'I,' the ego, the forgetfulness that enters early in the morning.
This forgetfulness is called identification. It is not your
fault that it comes. How many years have I said, 'why do you think that it is
your fault?' How many years have you been hearing it?
It is not your fault. Yet you have been taught that you are
mistaken, all the time mistaken.
Who would like to throw their money away on these silly computers?
What concern do you have with Leela? Leela has got nothing to do with you. Your
body has everything to do with you. Even when you die, you will expect your body
not to die. You will pray to body, 'Lord body, you have looked after me this
far, can't you wait two days more so that I can see my children?'
Now this is a laboratory. and I expect not all but some of
the people are understanding what I am saying. I am saying that you are Space.
Keep knowing Space no matter what comes in the Spacerelations, or miserliness,
or generosity, or anger, or thirst. And do that which is useful for this body.
You are Poorna which means fullness. Remember it. Remember
it forever. You neither increase nor decrease.
Pragati: I liked your point yesterday when you said: "It is
awareness first.' And although awareness becomes (the individual) 'I',
why do we think of ourselves as individuals, when it is with that very
awareness that we are even saying 'I?'" That was so liberating . .
Swami-ji: It will never be called your defect or your mistake or
your foolishness, or your non-understanding or your crime or your sin.
It is just understanding.
For the knowledge to arise, you need some catalyst, some form.
If you know that a person's eyes are always here (points to his eyes) then you
will not look for them on the shoulders or the stomach.
So, no mistake. And if there is no mistake, then you have
to accept the words of Guru-ji that you are free from mistake. I am free from
crime. I am free from nonsense. I am free from forgetfulness. I am pure and I
am free. And it is not even necessary to add 'I am.' It is only pure and free.
But human language begins with 'I,' so we have to start from
this step. For example, you might say, 'From Kullu, I went to Manali.' To get
there, you took the same step, one after the other, but you started from the
beginning. Therefore, you have to know from where you started. You started from
your mother, from your original town (your birthplace), from your original house.
But who is that who is making someone know this? That is Knower.
You need this catalystthis bodythrough which you will have all the
knowledge of Krishna. Arjun needed a body in order to hear.
Ultimately, if you know that you have made no mistake, then
you are pure and free. I'll continue saying this, otherwise you will have no
chance. I say that with your two eyes, you are infinitely richthey are
so important that billions of dollars are nothing compared with the value of
your two eyes. But in an instant, in just a second, you forget that the snake
you think you see is just a rope and fear comes and body trembles.
It is only the mechanism. So just attribute it to the mechanism.
Body takes birthmechanism. Body will diemechanism. But it does not
mean that when the dross of the gold is burned in the fire, the gold will die.
Gold is gold againpure. So why would that God, that permeating Self, die
when body-dross will be dropped or burned. You never die! You are that!
The fact is that purity and freedom has never become bound
by the body, with the body, for the body, to the body, in the body,. It is always,
always purity and freedom. That thou art!.
To understand this, it has taken thirty years, and by now,
the most brilliant persons have begun to understand. Yes, a little bit of the
dross of doubt is there. But it is getting burnt.
That which is the recognizing power is the Self. Recognizing
power, realizing power, Self power, and Self knowledge: it is forever the