Satsang  –   Volume 3, Number 12 : June 14, 2000
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The Ability to Grasp the All-permeating Self

Hirdaya Priya: Today Swami-ji, you were saying—I wrote it down because I thought it was so neat—you said, ‘If Self is somewhere way up there and not connected to anything, then it will be confusion for a human being.' That made me remember you having said to me: 'it is not enough to say that the Self is not the body if you don’t also say that the Self is all-permeating.' And I thought that that must have been where my confusion lay. 
I wanted to ask you if you could help me to unfold the understanding of the all-permeating nature of the Self as opposed to what I was saying before, which is that Self is somewhere separate or not the body. What can I unfold in my own understanding in order to grasp that?

Swami-ji: This forest, these trees and these mountains: you are seeing all that. Without the spring season, they could not have become green nor could they have flourished or flowered. Spring is permeating the forest. That’s the meaning of spring—all-permeating. The same is the meaning of Self—all-permeating.
Spring is only tiny piece of your weather. Here and now, winter is not permeating, fall is not permeating: spring is permeating. But Self permeates all the weathers, all the directions, all the tattwas, all the ideas, all the dwellers, all the situations. That’s the meaning.

Hirdaya Priya: In practicing the discrimination between that which is changing and that which is unchanging, I had come to the understanding that the Self exists as what I call 'an independent existence' from that which is prakriti or changing. So when you say that the Self is all-permeating, it leads me to think that there are times when my discrimination is working to lead my attention to that which is both independent and all-permeating, and there are times when that discrimination is actually functioning as a divisive power. How can I know the difference?

Swami-ji: When you hear the word ‘independent,’ you carry with it an old meaning: independent of snow, independent of shovels, independent of car, independent of your fur coat, independent of your shoes, independent of your bed, independent of your blanket. 
But I am saying that independent means there is no duality. It is all one reality. 
The ocean is independent. It is not dependent on waves. It is not dependent on fog or clouds. It is not dependent on snowflakes. It is not dependent on waterfall. It is not dependent on rivers. It is not dependent on ocean water. Why? It is oneness. That is the meaning of independent.
You think a person who is in the jail is not independent. He is a person dependent on the jailer and the man who locks him in. He can’t do anything. Therefore he is seen as dependent. 
Your shirt is with your body. Body is dependent on shirt. And shirt is dependent on your body at this time. That is the type of meaning you conclude. So it is confusion. But it is the human head that functions like that. 
Your view of 'independent' is from the doer’s side—karmic action, duality. Whereas Self alone is. So where is Self going to be called dependent? Why would prakriti in any way be called separate? There is no such thing as prakriti separate from the Self.  
Gradually and slowly, hearing it so many times, you will come to know that which is independence. 

Hirdaya Priya: Swami-ji, how then should I be thinking about discrimination …

Swami-ji: Discrimination is for those people who are having indiscrimination or ignorance. Why for Self? 
You ask, 'How should I have discrimination?' You lost the point. You became 'I am the body.'

Hirdaya Priya: Right.

Swami-ji: You are always the body. And that’s the problem.
Early in the morning to Mary I said, "Mary, your body died." 
She didn’t believe it. 
I said, "It died twenty, thirty years before, when you came from Canada." 
All the bodies die when you are asleep. She doesn’t understand. Why? For her birth is important—she was born on the deck of the ship in the ocean. And the priest came over and baptized her. Since then she is a baptized girl. She is born, and she will die. And she wants to die earlier than myself. So she thinks I’ll also die. [Laughter] 
It is very obvious. Her attention is on the utensils. [Laughter] On the pots. They are utensils. Utensils are objects which are used, which have utility. 
So she thinks, "He is sitting, so he has utility. She is thin so she has utility." 
You are not utensil.
So human beings need a little bit of patience and study and time. Whatever comes to them, they can study it and ask someone who knows about it. And this is what you do. 
For you, you are always the body. Now it’s not a challenge. It’s the truth. [Laughter] Just that.

Hirdaya Priya: Swami-ji, when mentioned utensils, it made me think that my use of discrimination has also been like using a utensil.

Swami-ji: Yes, yes. Because you think discrimination is some utility. Or ignorance is some utility. Or language is some utility. Or chair is some utility. Or chairperson is some utility. When you die, who bothers?
Utility! What utility do you have? [Laughter] It’s a futility! [Laughter] So when you began to think futility is utility, you are in trouble, you are confused. That which you call ‘all’ and yet see it as separate from Self is futility. 
Many people, like Dikpal, began to hear about ‘non-existence.’ He has been trying to figure it out for the last thirty years.  "What is it, this non-existence? Things exist. I see them." 
And he doesn’t get it. [Laughter]
Existence alone is, therefore why do you discard it? When you discard it, then your idea is non-existent. 

Dikpal: Swami-ji, 'existence alone is' is quite a different statement than "the ring is gold."

Swami-ji: Why do you cling on to the ring now, when you have come to know that existence alone is? When you came to know that ocean alone is, why do you keep surfing? [Laughter]
Existence alone is. That is the view. For a human being, this view will help. 
So when I say to Hirdaya Priya, "You think you are a body," if she already knew the nature of that existence, she will never think it is wrong: 
She will say, "Yes, I am body." 
Then I will say, "Well look, you are seeking discrimination. Discrimination you don’t have." 
Immediately she fell on the idea of a discrimination which she doesn’t have, and my words have no meaning for her. She was clinging on to the idea of her own that she is seeking discrimination because it is out there somewhere and if she doesn’t have it, for her there is no discrimination. 
Who is right? Am I right or is she right?

Hirdaya Priya: You’re always right, Swami-ji! [Laughter] That goes without saying. There’s no discussion about that!

Swami-ji: See? If she knew that existence alone is, then discrimination will come. 
Because she is a seeker she will seek. There is no problem. You do your things.
Only one thing you have to know—maybe two, three, four, five, two thousand—but at least one thing should be known! [Laughter]  ' Existence alone is' is something, somewhere that you have to know. 
So it is said to the human beings, so as not to let them be wasting their time and energy, "Self alone is." How simple.
What does it mean—'existence alone is?'  Immediately, if you are a scientist, you say, "What about consciousness?" 
Bhakti Nath is always struggling about knowing consciousness, "If existence material alone is, then don’t you think consciousness [exists]?" Duality came.

Dikpal: If you say that existence is consciousness, then it’s the same thing.

Swami-ji: But why would you have to say existence is consciousness? Can’t you understand that consciousness will be consciousness without existence? [Laughter; Swami-ji laughs heartily]
Yes. You say something.

Hirdaya Priya: Thank you very much Swami-ji. I want to say how lucky I feel that you exist because this feels like a very fundamental confusion, and, unless I can ask you about it, it will never get sorted out. As you said earlier, the wave of duality is never going to be able to sort itself out.

Swami-ji: Because look, you never talked. You just came and gave speeches, and I said, "Yes, fine, fine." 
You are Canadian and I kept saying, "Yes, yes, yes, yes," because if I had interfered you would have said, "Oh he’s Indian, these are Indian views, Eastern views. I am Western. I have my Western view."
Immediately, you divided Eastern and Western. 
Here I am saying "Universal alone is," and you have your own meaning of universe
So we have to talk. In talking, something happens if I respect you, which means I accommodate your questions. You call them right and wrong. But for me, existence alone is. 

Hirdaya Priya: If I just repeat, when I’m meditating and even when I’m awake, that 'existence alone is', will the meaning of that become me, reveal itself to me?

Swami-ji: Yes, yes. Because then the meaning will come.

Hirdaya Priya: Thank you Swami-ji!

Swami-ji: That’s all! At that time it is said like that.
I was talking to Gyaan yesterday. They had Kashmir Duodarshan (the national TV network) on the TV. From 6:00 to 9:00 I was watching a very good show, all pop singers. All. [Laughter] All pop singers. Amitabh was there, and Jertly was there, and that Abdul Aasan, Prime Minister or Premier of Kashmir,  and other persons were there—very famous pop singers—and that woman, Pooja Batra, she was there.
I watched up to 9:00 or 9:15. All the shows were not watchable, but it was great. [Laughter] And I was just sitting like this and watching. Gyaan came. And Pooja Batra said that, "Clap everyone, clap everyone, clap everyone!" Nobody clapped [Laughter] because there was nothing to clap for. So then she clapped herself, and said, "Look what a great clapping it is!" Anyway, she said, "I am now going to sing that song, "Must kalandar." You know? "Bandar must kalandar."

Alka: Yes.

Swami-ji: Something like that. I heard it before and liked it. So I asked Gyaan, "Who sang this before?" 
She was trying to find out the name and I was trying to find out name. I said, "Renu Renu, Runa Runa, Runa Renu – something like that." It was not coming, so we dropped the idea and began to watch the pop singers. And all of a sudden it came: "Runa Lela!" 
So now, the point is: If existence withdrew the word Runa Lela, it just withdrew it. We didn’t mind. 
She looked at me; I looked at her—we both are almost spaced out people. So she didn’t say that she forgot. I didn’t say I forgot. [Laughter] So nothing happened and we were busy with other things.
All of a sudden it came: "Runa Lela." All of a sudden: "Runa Lela!" 
She was surprised. She said, "How did it happen?" 
I said, "How did it happen that I said Runa Lela?" There is the Knower, and Knower is all permeating. And Knower is all free. Knower is self-effulgent, self-sufficient, and self–all-the-powers, self-powerful. Omniscient, omnipresent, and—what is [the] third one?—omnipotent! I forgot this one.
  If Self  is all, why should it care for you to continue remembering? It wants to do some other job. And then, all of a sudden, when it releases it: "Runa Lela."

Hirdaya Priya: So Swami-ji, when you talk about unfolding ability, then it doesn’t…

Swami-ji: Yes. Ability is not the memory. And not that which you have learnt. That’s not the meaning of ability. 

Hirdaya Priya: Sometimes I think that because I’m not trained for certain things in the way that other people are, or because I don’t seem to have a natural ability to make money and support myself, I think maybe I need to unfold that ability more. But then when I think that, it creates a fear that it’s going to take me away from you and from being here.

Swami-ji: No, that is very correct. Because our purpose in incarnating is only to get there, to unfold that. And if you think you are getting it through being here, that’s it. Why should I say anything else? That’s your ability, your choice. When I throw you away, send you away, or remove your concept or anything like that, then you can question. For me it’s all acceptance, because existence alone is.
I do not say that if somebody is meant for this, he should do this, or somebody else is meant for that so he should do that. That’s what the world consciousness is. And you are victimized by that world consciousness. You have never known that you are infinite. You know that "I am a body, a little girl, and I have not been able to unfold those powers with which I can earn tons and tons of money." 
You are not interested in it.

Hirdaya Priya: I’m not, Swami-ji.

Swami-ji: So if you are not interested in it, you know what is your interest. People are not interested in that in which you are deeply interested. So each one has to open the ability to know what for he is meant.
I was not meant for knowing Runa Lela. Many people say, [he imitates someone scratching their head, struggling to remember something] "I really know it. It’s not coming. I really know it." They beat themselves for nothing. 
I am able to understand that it is the Self, that’s all.
So if Self is connected to me, the mind, then mind will pick it up. If Self is not sending, as mind, I am saying, "Well, I have to remember. I have to have the force. I have to have the power. I must remember. Let me have my computer and see all the names of the pop singers and find out one." It will take years! And still you will not remember. 
And all of a sudden [he snaps his fingers], it came. So it is not merit.
I am making a point for you to understand. It happens with everyone. Just possible with Dikpal it doesn’t happen. So he thinks all human beings are like that, that they remember all that they have gone through. Just possible you are not drinking FG (Famous Grouse, a local spirit). Those who have drunk FG, they forgot everything! 
Each person’s ability is his  niyati (individual blueprint) Fire’s ability is to burn. Sound's ability is to sound. 
Unborn , undying, unchanging, this is being said. But who gets it? It must have some kind of brain in which it should be unfolded. 
If existence alone is, why is it born this time, and why is it going to die? Many people say, "Because of this, he is like that. Because of this he is like that; because of this he is like that." It makes no sense.
We don’t know about anybody unless we come into interaction. Until then, you don’t know anything. That’s a human being. 
She says, "Ability." What can ability do when ability is not coming to you? It has decided not to come to you. That’s all. [Laughter]
So what kind of ability you want?

Hirdaya Priya: I was remembering a time many years ago when I had written you this letter about how I’d had these car accidents. So I said the same thing to you, that I feel like there’s something wrong and I should improve on that level. And you wrote me back, saying that I was the first and only person in your life who has said this to you. 
   You said, "You have to know that your nature is not that. You’re not meant to drive a car or a taxi or a bus. You’re meant to drive the whole world into wisdom. And it’s not your nature, and you shouldn’t drive a car." And from that day on I never drove a car.

Swami-ji: And you were not 'accidented!' [Laughter]

Hirdaya Priya: I’m not accidented, and I’ve saved a lot of people on the road from myself. 
I just want to thank you, Swami-ji. Not only do you give me the knowledge of that pure existence that existence alone is, but that you seem to be the only one who knows exactly what my niyati is. In understanding that niyati, it saves me a lot of confusion as well. And I really thank you for that.

Swami-ji: That’s nice.

Hirdaya Priya: So, I think that’s all. As far as ability is concerned, it seems from what I understood of what you said that there is no sense in unfolding ability in an area where the Self itself has withdrawn its power and is leaving you just free to be. Is that correct?

Swami-ji: No. It’s not correct because you will have to unfold the ability. That is correct.

Hirdaya Priya: Oh.

Swami-ji: You just drop everything. Self, the same thing: "Self is not within me."

Hirdaya Priya: Yes, you’re right.

Swami-ji: You can drive the car. You can unfold the ability. You can do anything you like. But you have to do it. What can a man not do if he decides to do it?

You have seen many, many cases. They were small little boys. They went to the schools. They are big engineers. Like Dattatray. What did he know except guitar? [Laughter] But he worked hard, and worked hard, and worked hard. Just that. And now watch. How did he do it?
[To Datta:] Computer lessons. You are giving her computer lessons! [Laughter] You are doing it, eh?

Hirdaya Priya: Yes. He’s teaching me actually.

Swami-ji: Oh yes. See? It is happening. Thank you.

Hirdaya Priya: OK. Swami-ji, can I just ask one more thing?

The Group: No!

Hirdaya Priya: Oh, sorry. Maybe I’ll ask next time. Thank you very much! [Much laughter and clapping as Hirdaya gets off the seat.]

Swami-ji: We have all kinds of people. [Laughter] It’s a kind of show. It's just like that pop singers' show. It’s just like this show. 
If they can be that famous and good, why, with all the intelligence at your command, would you not be able to spread that which you have realized? 
They are convinced. They've worked hard, those musicians and those legs and necks. [Laughter] They've worked very hard, very hard.

Cultivating the turiya state through meditation

Deep Priya: You made a very beautiful point the other day when you said that your role as guru is to inspire that which is already lit in us and to allow it to grow. You added that our role toward ourselves is just to do the same – to inspire that which is already lit and to avoid bad company. And you described bad company as the company of pain. And I found this to be excellent advice that I really enjoy following.
One thing that you mentioned in satsang the other day, on the topic of not being the body, was that if you are bitten by a mosquito you know that it’s not you that’s being bitten. And I compared that with what it is like for me when I am bitten by a mosquito.

Swami-ji: I say this because mosquito is tiny. If you were bitten by a snake I’d recommend medicine. [Laughter]

Deep Priya: Right. But I have a suspicion that even if you take medicine for a snake bite, which God forbid need not happen, you still know that you are not trapped in that existence of the body. And I found that when I am bitten by a mosquito, which sometimes happens, it takes me all my will-power to remain meditating or to just ignore it. So in that sense I can apply the idea theoretically that I am not the body and this is not a big deal and I can deal with that. But I don’t think I ever know what it is to not be the body.

Swami-ji: It’s really a long, drawn, very stereotyped subject: "I am not the body." I am not really interested in it. [Laughter]

Deep Priya: Don’t give up! How about "I am the all-permeating Space?"

Swami-ji: You are seeing the bodies sitting in the chair. Everybody sees. You are seeing these people and you are trying to convince me that "I am not the body." 
And I have told you that I watched hundred of bodies—pop stars—yesterday. [Laughter] You could have been one of them! Dancing. [Laughter]
I was actually remembering you and Mridula, because two of the girls o the TV were dancing the way you dance and Mridula dances. So I said to Gyaan, "Have dancers have borrowed from the West, or what?" 
And she said, "They have mixed it, that and this, some of the creativity of India and some of them. So they are trying to accept." 
So you are a body. Why do you say that "I am not a body?"

Deep Priya: Because I know that I am much, much more than that.

Swami-ji: It’s very good that we do. It is like knowing that we are not books, but how many books have we read? We never say, "I am a book." [Laughter]
So what do you want to say? You tell us.

Deep Priya: Well what I want to say is: how can I find a practice that’s more efficient in remaining aware of the Self at all times?

Swami-ji: Very simple. 
Drop your ‘I.’ That’s all. 
If you can’t drop it, then find out how to drop it. 
And find out what you are going to drop. 
Then it is study.

Deep Priya: Right. That was my next question. How can I drop it?

Swami-ji: You are fully convinced that ‘I have’, ‘I am’. I told you many times that you have shirt, you have bangles, you have eyes, you have nose, you have everything—maybe even intestines and other things. [Laughter] 
But you don’t have ‘I.’ That’s the only thing. And you have made sambandh (relation) with the ‘I’ and you are not free. 
This ‘I’ is just a relation. Relations are never real. Sambandh is never real. Due to our language and our upbringing and our body constitution—it's made like that, it's not the fault of the parents or our society or people or government, neither France nor Canada nor India—you are convinced that you have ‘I’. 
That’s the problem.
If ‘I’ is the spider then it must have network. 
When I say you don’t have your ‘I,’ I have to say this taking your conviction of ‘I’ to be true and then denying it. I am not doing anything very special. But I am saying that you need freedom. Wherever freedom is, there you have to find it. Wherever you lost your ring, at that place you try to locate it. You will find out. 
You wanted your own finger ring, so you got your French ‘I’, which must not be ‘I’—it is ‘je’. Je t’aime. [Laughter] It cannot even be ‘I.' So you have to study.

Deep Priya: Thanks Swami-ji. From what you say I understand that the existence of the body is completely innocent. It’s more on the level of identification with the truth of the real being.

Swami-ji: Dream, deep sleep and waking state—these are three conditions. 
You think the waking state is more important than deep sleep to you, and dream state is less important than waking state.
You have to see why it is that you are awake, and waking state is carrying your ‘I’ or ‘I’ is carrying your waking state. ‘I’ is awake and awaking, waking is ‘I’ and both are to be located where they are. 
In deep sleep waking is not. ‘I’ is not.
Have you ever located your waking state? You think that that’s the work that we do; that’s the reality. So everybody is doing the job in the waking state. And according to the waking state, they are checking the people and how much brain and how much he is awake and what is happening. And they are assigning this, this, this. And [a] lot of world is going on.
Have you ever thought that there is a fourth state? Never. 
Fourth state [or turiya state] is the underlying reality. ‘Underlying reality’ means that out of which deep sleep arises. Turiya didn’t die just because sleep arose. 
Out of turiya state dream state arose. 
Out of turiya state the waking state arose. And if waking state gets finished, turiya doesn’t get finished. So is the case with deep sleep and dream. All three interact or mix and get transformed into this and that and interchanged, but turiya never has interchange. 
is mukti, turiya is liberated state. Turiya is not words, turiya is not the meaning. 
The waking state drama and show will depend on the waking state ‘I.’  Dream state depends on dream. Somewhere, you have to have a clue of the turiya state. 
You say, "Well, what about turiya? I know only three states. If there is a turiya, turiya should be presenting before me."
Your argument is perfect niyayit or justice. Three states you observe, the fourth you don’t. Therefore here you come and you want to live or get into fourth [for] which you have been sitting since ten o’clock.
The fourth state you are in. What do you want to understand about it? My job as a person with turiya state dweller is to touch you through my words and get you into turiya
And you are busy talking about ability of work, ability to drive the car, and all that. That’s not the drama over here. The work is here that you are desirous of having turiya
is peace. Turiya is liberation. Turiya has no meaning. Turiya has got nothing to do with forgetfulness or memory. Turiya has got nothing to learn. Turiya has got nothing to forget. Turiya is only fourth state which underlies all the states plus all the junk of these three states. [Laughter] That’s called adjunct. [Laughter]
All those upaadis, all the names and forms, are in the waking state. And that which senses names and forms is called human ego sense—individual sense. Through individual sense you must say ‘I’. You cannot call yourself a—what do we put on the face that Malti gives me?

Alka: Lavender?

Swami-ji: Yes, lavender. You are not lavender, though in your mother’s place there are many lavender farms. You are not lavender. You are ‘I’ and you have to deal with that. 
So check the waking state. Unless it provides you with the means which you use and unfold the turiya state, you won’t get liberation or jeevan mukti or life eternal.
Kim also comes over here many times. And when she is in the turiya state she understands. When in the waking state, she is very fond of her concepts. Concepts are a kind of very rigid, firm structure or mould for knowing the reality.
So here you are talking about that for which you have an ambition. Tell me: what is your ambition?.

Deep Priya: To unfold that ability.

Swami-ji: Yes. To unfold the realization of the Self, which means the liberated state which is always there but underlying. It is there. Fragrance is always there in the flowers, permeating it. But its essence comes only when you take it out or smell it. The whole flower or all the flowers in the garden are nothing but essence. That essence is the whole earth.

Deep Priya: Swami-ji, is the nature of that understanding more of the nature of being rather than of understanding as we normal put the meaning to that?

Swami-ji: Yes. So when you know the understanding, treat it you have come to know the truth. A human being exhibits understanding on the level of his intellect because intellect reflects understanding. Intellect reflects the Self. But reflection is not the Self. So up to understanding you can go. But from where [did] understanding arrive? You have to get to that. And for that, meditation.
In meditation watch: waking state is gone; dream is gone; deep sleep is gone; and it is only turiya state. Therefore when you are meditating you have worked to dig the fourth state. So either it comes by your efforts through meditation, or it comes through guru. 
But when it comes, you do not know because it looks similar to the waking state.
You are meditating, meditating, and just – no drishya, nothing. Sometimes you remember your children, you remember your friends, you remember your appointments. Sometimes. But if you are meditating a lot, why is it that those rememberings no longer work? Because turiya state appears—it is always there. It means these three states you negate, you shuffle, and they’re gone. Turiya state is your true nature in which you feel that you are liberated.
But there is one little bit more that  is coming and you must be getting it: turiya teet, where there is no idea of birth or death. Therefore I say you are unborn, you are deathless, amaram hum madhuram hum. But you have not been able to unfold that turiya teet.
So these are the stages through which you get it. There are human beings who have these states. 
One state is the pure shuddh chidaakash human being in which no birth, no death—nothing goes. 
Second is the antavaahak body, which means inner antahkaran in which you remember that I cannot really be totally body—as some girl said, 'I am more than a body.' You remember it, but that is not yet liberation because in that you suffer, you forget, you remember. That is your chit aakaashchit mind. 
Third is the still grosser bhoot aakaash: you are these five bhoot. Now the whole life you’ll remain dwelling in the middle of the five bhoot, or bhoot aakaash, or gross field. 
How would you get to that subtle stage? Only in meditation? That’s why meditation is very important. So from tomorrow, you start meditating. [Laughter]
And that’s all. Thank you. ‘Bye everyone.

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