In Reality, The Mind Is Not There

Swamiji: … People say the mind is not there. Saying only this is not correct because the one hearing it will think, “When everyone knows and says the mind is there, how can this statement be understood to be true?” What is the meaning of “The mind is not there”? It should be backed by “In reality.” In reality, the mind is not there. Otherwise, the mind is there. Our eyes see things and then say they are real. When the eyes are used, there is no need to have proof of what something is. Manu [Dunn and Tali’s three-year-old son] has seen an elephant, and he doesn’t need any proof to validate he has seen it. That is why a human being says that which he has seen directly with the help of his eyes is correct and the truth.

So it is in reality that the mind is not there—because these eyes do not see the mind. Whatever is seen with these eyes is there. When these eyes do not see the mind, then who sees it? The one who feels it. The one who feels it would be the one who woke up. But before he woke up, he was not there, so there was nobody to feel. Feeling means as I feel that Abhaya is a bear, because of her hair. [Laughter.] You will say that the feeling is not correct. Right? I feel that these are the Rocky Mountains. You will immediately say, “Your feelings are not correct.” I feel like Swadarshana is going to Sri Lanka. Then Shaarda will say she is not. Now, these are the eyes of the mind, which are not correct. Because, in reality, the mind is not there.

So you need inquiry. Inquiry is against the structured thinking of a human being with which he thinks “This world exists outside of me.” Whereas if you do inquiry—which is not done with the same eyes, the same thoughts, the same thinking, the same feelings—then you yourself will find that the world is in you. “Ben and Vera [Bhakti Nath’s parents] have died” This thought of death is in you; then they were not there. The world is in you; then the world is not there. This means that in reality the mind, which makes the world, is not there. Said in this way, it is alright to say.

Otherwise it will be a misconception, a wrong statement, that the mind is not there. Hearing it, everyone will say, “If the mind is not there, then how should I work?” Tomorrow you will say that the intellect is not there because it concludes wrong things. In this way, whenever you say, “The mind is not there,” it should be backed by “In reality, the mind is not there,” which means you use reality, you do not use the same kind of eyes—the eyes of the mind, the eyes of the body, the eyes of the intellect, or the eyes of understanding of a human being.

In reality, death is not there. It is not that death is not there, so a human being is deathless. “In reality, death is not there” means that which is real, that Being, will say that death is not real, because Being is permeating all. Then for him, changes are there, the creeper is growing, the trees and grass are growing, the grass-cutter is cutting, and all that is there. So if you say, “In reality, the body is not there,” that is correct. Then it will be, “In reality, you are unborn.” But the body is born. So we celebrate birthdays. Whose birthday is coming next? OK, Dan’s is coming. Is Dan OK? Not too bad. If you say, “In reality, Dan is not there,” then you will ask what should be done for his fever.

You should know where you stand. You stand as Shiv Nath [Steve], a person with eyes, ears, nose, skin, shoulders, a body, and all that, whereas in reality, the name Steve is not. But the name Steve is working. It’s a working name. It’s a working world. It’s not in reality. The moment you know that “In reality, the mind is not,” then you will know “In reality, the world is not.” Then why would you be attached to this and suffer your whole life? In this way, a human being wants to reach the state where there is no suffering. That’s the only thing. Whatever satsang is there, whatever work he is doing in the world, he wants to achieve the state where there is no suffering. And he cannot achieve it if he does not realize the Reality. That’s all. …

Shiv Nath: In that description that you just gave of how to understand that the mind is not there, you said, “In reality, the mind is not there,” which implies examination…

Swamiji: Examination. You will find that with imagination, the mind is there.

Shiv Nath: Right. Then my understanding would be that I should examine the one who wakes up. Would that be equivalent to what you are saying, that we should examine the mind? Because the mind has no substance in itself, but the one who says, “I woke up now, this is me and my day,” if I examine that…

Swamiji: You cannot. If you examine the one who says, “I woke up,” then you will only reach the mind, for what you have described is the functioning of the mind. The mind says I, and I becomes the subject. This means that the subject becomes knowledge, and its functioning is action. It is like air and the movement of air, which is air-action. So mind-knowledge means that the mind is now knowledgeable. It woke up and became conscious. So it is the conscious mind that says, “I woke up,” not the one who never has to wake up.

Shiv Nath: So with that action I can’t understand…

Swamiji: No, you cannot, unless you become action-less, non-doer, unless you achieve the state of non-doer. The state of non-doership is being conveyed to people by, “Do work in the world, but think that God has done it, or that you have not done it. Be non-doer.” In this way, they are trying to let you attain the state of non-doership. Through action, you will attain the state of non-doership, and that will be the state of knowledge, the Self, or love or joy—whatever you call it.

This is where you cannot attain it with action. With action, you can attain mind-knowledge, the waking state. In the waking state, there is action, and in deep sleep there is action. Action will be when the dream state is built-consciousness. If the dreamer is built, then the dreamer is born over there in the dream, and his action will start—his eyes will start, his ears will start—because knowledge and action are one thing. But as a human being thinks that knowledge is something else other than action, he is not able to figure this out. So he says that God is somewhere and his action—the world—is somewhere else. Thus, to him the Self and the world became two. Whereas the world is the action of the Self.

In this way, realization is of your Self. When you are the Self, then there is no spirit and no matter. That will be the unfoldment. That you can examine, that the Self is where neither form is there nor formlessness is there, neither duality is there nor oneness is there. These are teaching devices. A teaching means that which is being indicated. Such as [pointing to the sky] “The polar star is there. Look at that. It is there.” When you get married, the priest says, “Look, the polar star is there.” It is a ceremony, and neither the girl nor boy knows it, for they are getting married in the daytime and the polar star cannot be seen.” … The Self is indicated, as I say,” You are Pure Free Forever.” This is an indication. This is the teaching. We only try to indicate. And you don’t get it. …

Why would you like to locate this I? When you say that the I and body are different, then to you, the subject-knower and action are different. In this way, you never get it. For this I, and the body, and the action of the body are just the same: they are not at all anything else. So the realization of the Self does not happen even with great learned persons because they think I is that which is me. They say that this is the Self [indicating the body]. They began to say that Me is here. But if you open your ribs, it is not there—neither the Self, nor your me.

That is why only the use of the senses does not help in your examination. We say, “Now, examination will begin, and we’ll participate,” and you are there and I am there. But before you woke up, you were in deep sleep. You understand sleep. In sleep, when you were a little bit tired, there was a dream. So you know what sleep and dream are. They are two kinds of nidra, as there are two kinds of air—air that moves and air that does not move. For you, when air moves it is air, and when air does not move it is air. So you never get what air is. Air is not there. That is air. It is aakaash, space.

You came to know, “Oh, if air moves, then it is air. If air stops, it must be the same air. As the same air moves or the same air does not move, so the same Self does not move, and the same Self—the mind—moves.” Then you will say, “When that is mobile, I feel that there is mind. Then I am relative, then I am in the consciousness of man. And I understand that when the mind does not move, then it is the Self.” Now, you didn’t get over there. Because where the senses are not being used, it is formless—but it is not the Self. You say that the Self has two kinds, the waking state and the non-waking state. But then it has not been the Self. If I have two fingers, it does not mean that I am this finger or this finger, that I’m a small finger or a fist, that I’m a fist or the whole palm. So the Self is neither this nor that. …

This is where a human being is trapped. Those people who want to be out of the trap are inquirers, aspirants. And the trap begins as soon as you know that you were born and you will die—that is the indication of being in the trap. If your understanding remains that someone is born and they will die, then be sure you are also thinking the same thing about yourself, that “I am born and I will die.” So when you say that the Self is deathless, the Self is Amaram Madhuram, it is an indication, and it is just possible by repeating and repeating it, unfoldment will take place, and you will understand. …

Knowledge is where I is not, where you are not, where this is not, where things are not, where elements are not. Now, for a human being, this is not really possible. Because he can have his flight of imagination up to the sky. When I indicate that it is not only the sky, then you have come to know that the sky is also visible only when You are. Therefore, without You, the sky is not. The sky is blue because of You. Otherwise, no one has to see the sky, neither blue nor white. So you have to reach the state of knowledge. We use all kinds of ways and means just to see unfoldment in you. …

In this way, we make people have the power to examine and expand to know, “Well, everybody is using I. But it is something deeper.” Otherwise, this I is alright. You feel that “I am.” That’s alright. However, you are not satisfied and you cannot compromise unless you reach the I, which means your own Source. But when I say “your own Source,” you think it must be as the Vyaas Kund is the source of the Vyaas river, or the source of the tree is a seed—which means cause and effect. Now, that is a human being. …

Imagine where imagination stops. That is You.

Shiv Nath: You made the point that you can only indicate it. From there, we have to take on the work…

Swamiji: By yourself. All of you are doing that. That’s what I appreciate— appreciate means, I love that. Because you are doing it. You are in harmony with the pursuit I have gone through. It’s not of one or two days. From a five-year-old chap up to this time, I’ve been doing it and concluding for you that Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum is the reality. Amaram—Unborn. Madhuram—Indivisible and Deathless. Hum—You. …

A human being is the incarnation which is the most wonderful tool, with a nervous system and all the three states of awareness, to develop the consciousness more and more—so much more that he will be able to know he has never been a human being, he has never been a form. If you call that reality which is Forever a reality that is born, then it becomes unreality, its opposite. Forever is that which is your aim. It is neither happiness nor unhappiness, neither loss nor gain, neither victory nor defeat.

What a human being knows with his ego-intellect-mind is what a human being is. What is the functioning of this trio? That “I am born and I should not die. It will be my victory, my gain, my happiness if I don’t die.” A human being has come into a field where there are the vocabulary, words, and understanding that are steeped in the states of happiness and unhappiness. He likes happiness and doesn’t like unhappiness. Even future pain should be avoided. For that, scriptures are written, the words of wisdom have been given, and great masters have said that you can reach the state which is Forever. ...

What is indestructible? All of you know. That is Love. So Love is indestructible. And what are you called? What do you stand for? Love. … Indestructible is infinite. And infinite is not that which is against finite. Indestructible has no beginning and no end. That which has no end will only be that which has no beginning.

Now, try to conceive of it. That is where you are. That is Forever. …