You Do Not Get The Answer From Your Intellect

Aatma: …If you come to totally identify yourself as the one you know in deep sleep—as that Purity, where no sense of relation is known, recorded, or registered—even then, when you said that until her last breath Roberta cannot know she is not a mother, were you saying that to the one who remains a human being?

Swamiji: Even when somebody says, “In deep sleep, you are not a mother,” this will never make sense. The one who says, “In deep sleep, you are not a mother” is talking about the one who has never been a mother, who has never even been born. The sentence, “Did you know that you have never been a mother in deep sleep?” will be heard, but it will not be understood by anybody. So your concern was right of how will there be any freedom if a human being has not understood this. You need an answer for this. Roberta needs an answer for this. It’s very easy for us to say, just to keep her inquiry shut, that “When you were young, when you were not even married, were you a mother?” She will answer, “No.” But how is she a mother now? She will say, “Well, it’s a process”—as Don says. [Laughter.] This is to be understood and sorted out. Because you do not examine it, so I do not share with you. I share with you only that which you are capable of examining.

Aatma: When you spoke those words yesterday to Roberta, I found myself examining and not wanting to accept when you had said to her, “Till your last breath, you’ll always remain a mother.” Was that correct?

Swamiji: You, as Roberta suppose, are fully aware that you are Roberta, you are a form, you are a person, you are a mother. How can you be anything else, but not this? The lifetime of a human being begins with his birth and ends, without his knowing, at the time of death. Those who are alive, only they know you have died—you never know you have died. You never know that you died, yet you know you are born. That is your intellect. That duality is ingrained by birth. It’s not that somebody has made you ignorant. The word “ignorant” is not good, you can say “a human being.” That’s all. … Through our satsang, it has been opened in every being that the Self never dies. But your understanding is still there that the Self is born. So, what do you understand?

Aatma: In the same way that there is no one there to know that I die, when a new born baby is born, it doesn’t have the knowledge that it is born, it’s something it has learned.

Swamiji: If you can guess that a new born baby does not know he is born, then why, after some ten years, did he start saying he was born?

Aatma: Because he learned it.

Swamiji: If he has learned this, then others should explain it, and should suffer for it, not the baby. When you know “I am that baby,” why would you accept the suffering of others, or the knowledge of others? That is what I had wanted to dig in Roberta, that “In deep sleep, you don’t know you are born or a mother.” Why? Because she could be quiet on that account. She could not say anything. But she could not examine. In the waking state, she can examine to know the fact that she is not born. Everyone in the waking state is sleeping, thinking he is born. So his knowledge is still not there so that he can say that he is Unborn.

As long as a human being knows he is born, then he’s growing older, and he is to help the whole world, or he is not to help the whole world. He is caught in that awareness which is ignorance: it is not Pure. So when we say Pure Awareness, then Pure means that which is neither awareness nor ignorance. I give a word for you to hear, and then to catch the meaning of Pure. Yesterday, Dr. Leif had asked which word he can use—sky, space, or heaven. Now, human beings do not know their meaning. Why? Because the meaning is Pure. Pure means that it’s not intellectual, it’s not mental, it’s not dreamy, it’s not deep sleepy, it’s not wakefulness. But a human being, as a grown up child, only came to know these three states.

So I say, “Till death, you’ll know you are a mother,” because that is human. I do not go against human consciousness, because you will not be able to understand it. If at all you try to answer, then you will say, “It’s most inhuman what you are saying, Swamiji.” A human being has to know he is born and he will die, because he’s living with human beings. But the wolf-boy [a child who was raised by wolves] never knew he was born or he would die. That is the examination. But you do not get the answer from your intellect. I can extend examples, which I did, yet you are sitting quiet.

Aatma: Swamiji, whenever you use the example of deep sleep, is it my intellect which is understanding that state of Purity?

Swamiji: … The intellect is not capable. The very instrument, the intellect of a human being, is made only to have that knowledge that he has a body, he is born, he will die, he has to do good work, and he has not to do bad work (or he can do bad work not to do good work, whatever it is). That is intellectual. A human being is opened for this. He is not opened for the Supreme, for the Divine, or for that which is not the intellect. That is the deficiency a human being has by birth. …

This is human. Whereas what I am saying to human beings is a possibility. So I am a possible awareness for you to identify with: a human being who says “Essence alone is,” to which he has given a word, “Self.” But you know that the Self is this body. You do not know Essence. What is it that does not know Essence? If you take a human being as the ego, intellect, and mind, then it is the intellect that does not know Essence. So if he uses the same intellect until death, then he will remain the same. Because he has used the intellect.

The intellect is a tool, according to me, which is defective—for this purpose. For all other purposes, you already know that it is working: it is working, not working, working, not working. Both the things are there. [Laughter.] And you are satisfied with it: victory and no victory, defeat and no defeat, gain and no gain, loss and no loss, birth and birth, and death and death. All this goes on. That is what the intellect knows. But when you hear me, you do not use your intellect. When Dikpal had said the Self does not die, that was not your intellect. It was your mouth, your tongue, your eyes, your head, and your Divinity that was speaking out loud, “The Self does not die.” But after that you said, “I should know how it is.” You became the victim of the intellect. If you know that the Self does not die, the very meaning is that the Self is not born.

Shaarda: If when you speak and we listen, it is the Divinity that is knowing what you are saying and not the intellect, then is the intellect not ever really necessary at all? Like for you?

Swamiji: To you. When I go in my room, I never talk about the intellect. I have no intellect—I have concluded. So I am like this. But you, because of your intellect, think that it is not Divine Being, that “It’s sometimes Divine, such as when he talks, and sometimes, such as when he goes to the kitchen, then he’s not divine.” [Laughter.] That is your intellect.

Shaarda: So then the Divinity is fully capable—without the mind, intellect, ego and everything—to know, act, and be?

Swamiji: Well, that’s what Dikpal says. Dikpal says the Self never dies. Which intellect on earth will say a man will not die? The intellect will say that a human being dies and a human being takes birth. I say that, as a human being, there is nothing wrong with this. You should work on this formula, “I am born and I’m going to die.” [Laughter.] I use words and all that, and they are the words of human beings, which they use: “There were sages, saints, and prophets, there were gains and losses, there were kingdoms, there were mothers, fathers, and sons, they became good, they became this.” So I also say the same thing. But you do not believe that in the heart of hearts I say this because I know that it’s all Me, all Essence. You think that if it’s all Me, then how does a mountain come in a dream?

Aatma: With the example of the dream, it seems so clear—when you wake up—that the mountain is nothing but Essence, because it’s not made of anything other than you.

Swamiji: So then why is it that you think the dream was there?

Aatma: I only think the dream was there from the waking state.

Swamiji: That is what I say: that it is the intellect. It is the intellect, or human knowledge—may you not use the words “intellect, mind, or ego,” but you cannot say you are an animal. What is that with you that do not say you are an animal? That’s the intellect. For a child, there is no such thing. He says or does not say, “I’m a boy” or “I’m not a boy,” “I am male” or “I am female.” So we have struggle, or we continue doing satsang, your so-called dialogues—in ignorance. Even then, whatever we are doing, it seems to be good. That’s all. So we have adopted this. If you are shivering, if not sunshine, then a heater is enough. We need to see that this human being should be comfortable for at least a couple of days. Whenever satsang happens, how high and good you are. When satsang is not happening, you are different. But you do not complain why you are different. You are ok. To that I say, “You are forever ok.” Whenever your ok changes, then the intellect comes. Otherwise, it’s the Self.

Shaarda: But is it not possible that sometimes we feel blessed, we feel ok, yet we are totally functioning under the duality of birth, death, and intellect?

Swamiji: When pain is not, then you say you are ok. But it’s all pain—human birth. It’s all pain from the very beginning: inside the womb, there is pain; outside for a small child, there is pain; in school, there is pain; when you are beaten by someone, there is pain; when you are wrestling and are defeated, there is pain. Everywhere, pain, pain, pain. You are never, never happy. But what can you do—we are human beings, and we call our pain as happiness. [Laughter.] Because we don’t feel pain when we eat, so we think it’s alright. But when we are hungry, daily, what do you call it? Why is it not pain? Just because you immediately get food. If you do not get food, ask that hungry man. These are very vital issues, and they’re not meant for everyone.

Aatma: When you said that you’re ok unless the intellect comes, then that ok state which you are talking about is not the same as the ok state of pain and no-pain?

Swamiji: We have no words, so we say it is divine, we say the Self, we say realization, we say sky or heaven—just to let people start examining, “What is it?” When you examine, then vichaar [inquiry] arises. When you have done satsang, when you have meditated on Pure Free Forever, when you are practising Pure Free Forever, Pure Free Forever, Pure Free Forever, then that Pure Free Forever, out of compassion, has given you the knowledge. And that started working, that “Yes, I now know I am Pure Free Forever.” But then again you have to practise. You have to continue practising, until you know that which you call “I” is “I alone am, the Source, from where, like the centre of a circle, all the radii go all around, just as all the beams go from the sun—yet it is one.” Till then, you have to practise. Which means that after practice, you reach the conclusion. If the conclusion is defective or the conclusion is doubtful, then practice should be continued. So we say it can happen. Then, we give credit to human existence. …

I say you are Pure Free Forever. Why is it that you become a slave? Because you are a slave to your thinking, a slave to your intellect. Without knowing what the intellect is, you have become a slave to it. And you are Free Being! I say you are a slave, which means that you are bound. “Slave” is a word which you challenge. You say, “No, I am not.” But when I say you are bound, you say, “It’s ok that I am bound.” So sometimes I have to use very harsh words for you to cut your concept and know that you have never been a woman. But then you say, “Well, if I’m not a woman, then what am I?” I’m talking to you, so I say you are not a woman. But when I talk to a male, then I say, “You are not a male, Manohar.” He’ll say, “Why not? I have as good a beard as you have.” Then I say, “Yes, you are male, and I am male.” In this way, we continue living life. …

When you become alert and aware, at that time you begin to use the same intellect, but either to expand it or to purify it—it is said. Its purification is that you should not believe in what the intellect has told you up to this time. Then, purification will start. But the intellect will make you believe in what the intellect is capable of. Then, it is you again. We see this many times when each of us meditates—for that hour, for those minutes, you know. What you know, you know. When you ask me what I know, then I’ll tell you. But you know what you know; I never know what you know. You close your eyes, that’s what I know. After that, what you do, you are unique. Seven billion people will not know what you are doing when you close your eyes. …

Body-consciousness is rampant. Wherever you go, it is the body. You watch television. All the advertisements are lies. … Yet you believe in them. You see human beings—on television—and you believe they are real. You see dreams, and you believe they are real. You see in the waking state that these are human beings and they are real. Now, what I can do? I can only say this: Live this reality the way it is in time and space, till your last breath. You are a human being, and if you learn the ways of human beings, you will remain a human being, maybe that human being whom you call the president of the country. He’s a human being. He eats the same food the same way and he goes to the bathroom the same way you do. By having a chair and structure that “I’m the president” doesn’t mean that his hunger, his thirst, or his worry became the president. He’s the same human being. But he’s assisted by hundreds of people, so he’s sitting having a cigarette, thinking what to do, whom to attack. [Laughter.] …

[Many people who are other people’s relations have died, but you are not worried.] … That means you are that Being who has nothing to do with worry. If this is so, then you have nothing to do with the mind, which creates worry. If this is so, then what remains? That is Divinity. That is the Self. That is Freedom. If that is realized itself, then it is Freedom. But that is caught in your body. And the body is already attached to name and form, to religion, country, and climate, and then to the ideas of life and death.

Aatma Shakti: … I see it has been a confusion that I’ve had that I thought transcendence was there before birth, and then it would become manifest, and then it would become unmanifest. But I see that you are saying that transcendence is something completely different.

Swamiji: Transcendence is where there is no manifestation, where there is no dream, where there is no birth in the dream, where there is no death in the dream, where there is no waking state, where there is no birth and death in the waking state, where there is no relationship between two. That is transcendence. That transcendence is when you are quiet and a question does not come. But liberation is not. So complete transcendence is complete liberation, which is called sky, which is called heaven, as compared to this hellish life. And the hellish life of a human being is not the body. Because when the body dies, everybody salutes it, everybody is respectful. No doubt so many relations are sad, but they salute it—because the body is pure. And the Being, the transcendental, is pure. Pure is forever pure. But that which is not knowing this is the mind.

We talk to a human being because he has the ability to understand “I am the mind, I have senses, and I have a body.” This is mental. “I have the world, I have a purpose, and I have to fulfill it.” That is not transcendence. That is where human beings love to transcend. They drink for transcendence. They smoke for transcendence. They fight for transcendence. They eat for transcendence. That is what the purpose of a human being is. If it is so that in order to achieve transcendence he is ready to do anything, even to commit suicide, then he needs transcendence. And when I say that this is the technique for it, he doesn’t follow it. That is a human being.

Rita: Swamiji, you had said before, “If you ask me, I’ll tell you what I do in meditation.” I would like to know what you do in meditation?

Swamiji: In front of everyone, I don’t answer. But I do this, that the way that Rita thinks “I am,” I’m not. [Laughter.]

Aatma: Swamiji, when you said that purification will only be when you don’t accept all that which your intellect has been taught or trained, if in order to bring about total purification I don’t accept what my intellect is speaking to me every time, is that a practice of transcendence?

Swamiji: Yes, it’s the beginning. The practice to achieve transcendence is what we are doing. Any work that you do, you can know you are doing it for transcendence—which is what I say. But your colleagues, friends, and peers will say, “You are doing this to achieve happiness,” which means not to be unhappy. The slogan appeals to you when I say, “Meditate, and you will have happiness.” And you are already happy! Why do you have to meditate for happiness when you are happy?

Turiya: There is a fear that the happiness will end or turn into something else.

Swamiji: Yes, that’s all. Then again, it is unhappiness. … A human being must first accept that he is a human being. So when you hear those who say, “You are not a human being, you are not a body,” it will not suit you. You are a body. I am a body, you are a body. Now, this will be settled for beginning what the body needs. Then, the market starts. Want. Supply will be found. Then all the MBA’s will find how to bring supply to a needy person. They will study want, and then want and supply. They are hired by companies who pay them a lot so that they can put unnecessary ideas of wants into the heads of human beings. …

You have to be that free that you are needless. Needlessness is the Self. So when Rita asked, “What do you meditate on, Swamiji?” I close my eyes and I practise needlessness. [Pause.] And you have found me acting on that. … We say to you to be knowledgeable of that which you want. It appears that you never examine what you want, so I remain quiet.

Aatma Shakti: Perfect transcendence.

Swamiji: Yes, perfect transcendence. That’s called liberation, freedom. Why should a human being not get this answer and the knowledge of liberation, if he wants it? Why should he keep wanting liberation, which means, why should he continue being a bound entity? He should be liberated! …