Radha (Marie): Swami ji, can I ask you something? It’s about Chapter 9, verse 9, of the Gita, where you say, “Do not doubt that this is my prakriti, and you are not doing your own creation. Everything that happens is Me alone.” I don’t really want to ask about it, because I know it is true and I keep going back to it again and again. But somehow it seems to be the place to go back to, and I wondered if you could say something.
Swami ji: You are right when you ask a question. A child does not have the chance to ask a question, but when he becomes big, he wants to know. So the knowing sense arises. In a child, at first the knowing sense is not found. It is hidden. But because it must be hidden in him, it arises, just like a sprout that is hidden in a seed. When you hear such examples, then you come to know what is hidden and what is obvious.
The human eyes see things, forms. But at one time, the eyes were not there. Things and forms were obvious to others, but for the unborn child, forms and things were not there. Where were they hidden? They must be hidden somewhere. They must be hidden in the child.
Before the child was born, he was not there. But how was the child made? If the earth was not there, why was the child born to walk on earth? If water was not there, how does the child bring pee and poo? How does the child breathe in? How does the child digest? This means that a human being is made of these five tattwas.
Now, for you there is no background, no knowledge of what the five tattwas, or five elements, are. So you can use the words for them in English. But for a child who is not born, the tattwas are not there, they are not five.
In Gita Chapter 9, Arjun has some background. He has his name and form. From where did his name and form come? You must know from where name and form came. The child did not bring the form sense and the name sense. So Arjun was trained by his parents, by people in the world, by associates, friends, and enemies, that he has a name and he has a form. And he was not even born!
So your question is right. You want to inquire, want to know, how the person is born, how you came into existence. If those gunas—sattwagun, rajogun, tamogun—if the basic gunas are not there, how can the world be made?
So first you have to be a human being, and the human being should grow, learning words. Each word has a form, and the form becomes the meaning. When the word was not there, where was any meaning? So word and meaning, name and meaning, is called form. How did the form come? Mud is a heap of clay, and now a sculptor or artist or potter has made two hundred forms, an army, from soldier to general, with weapons and things. It is all mud, so why call them forms? And here, these many people are sitting. We call them forms. But what is their mud? It is one Brahm.
The child’s parents can see the forms that the child has made out of mud, but the child has forgotten that it is mud. So I just remind him that there are no forms, no names; you made them, with your illusion, and forgot. In this way, there is one Brahm, one God, who manifested everything out of Himself, and now the child does not know how He manifested. So you have to ask, again and again, how it has happened that a form came to exist and inquire.
Now I stop, thinking that after hearing, you must have come to know. But no. You heard it, but you never got it—how God, or Self, or Shuddh, or Pure, made these many forms out of itself. So how will these forms and names know God? Krishn says, “I am telling you, Arjun, that you are unborn, which means no form, no name. Since everything that you see changes, all the padarth, all the names and forms, are changing, therefore I am telling you that I am unchanging, because I am not born, and I am not going to die—because you are afraid. If you can have this knowledge, then you will come to be free from fear.”
So her question is right, even though it was not quite the way she should ask it. She said it just to hear. And what makes her hear? All of you sitting here, let us know!
Radha: Swami ji, Krishn must be saying, “Pure, there is only that Pure.”
Swami ji: And if it is Pure, then Pure is not stupid. Pure is one Brahm, who alone is Pure Intelligence; and That is the one world. There are no two things. How did Satyam come to know that there is no contradiction, there is only one reality? It is her same brain, the same being, who has now come to know that “I am one alone.” But if she says, “I am one alone,” then you will say, “No, you are not one. You are Satyam, individual, and he is Bhakti Nath, individual. Everybody is individual.” So we cannot approach a human being, because the human being is made to forget the same one Being who has made all that which is to be seen, and who then, on the level of the seen, has made everybody forget.
Now Radha has heard, but she will remain at the same place—“My name and form.” Nobody can leave name and form, because they have all heard it a number of times, thousands, millions of times. Birth, a name and a form; death, a name and form; birth, name and form; death, name and form. That is how you have been given knowledge.
Guru says, why don’t you remember name and form in deep sleep? As a human being, you will say, “This is the way it is. In deep sleep, we are not supposed to know anything. That’s all.” So you remain in deep sleep, and do not come to realize who made deep sleep.
This knowledge is not the knowledge that you learn about computer science, television, all that modern equipment. They are obvious, but the knowledge of them is hidden. A child will not know which buttons he has to push, which square he has to fix, and for what, unless he learns it. So a human being is obvious knowledge, and the human being cannot know the unobvious by himself. That is the situation. So we need satsang. And satsang cannot happen without Guru.
When Guru says that you are never obvious, you do not hear, because you are fixed in the obvious. So it is to be studied. Why? Because your skull has intelligence, bodh—gyan and agyan both. This is the human being, gyan and agyan. But when you were not born, then where was gyan and agyan?
When you hear, you come to know, but you never retain it. After hearing, you cancel it. That is a human being. So we meet human beings daily, and the one who knows is aware that a human being, till he dies, will never leave name and form. So we go slowly.
Yes?
Vinamrtaa: When you were speaking today, you pointed out that the mud does not become anything, and that is what we have to stay with, and that is what is there when the body is dropped. Without you, Swami ji, that just could not be revealed. Quite a few weeks ago, when you pointed out that I was in a hypocritical state and that I was okay with it, I didn’t really understand immediately. But I have been thinking about it and dwelling on it very much, and that is just the very thing that I was feeling: that the hypocrisy is that I am still feeling that I am a human being, saying something, and that is what has to dissolve. And in your presence, it is getting dissolved, or it is dissolved. And I just thank you so much. Without you, it is just impossible.
Swami ji: Confusion. Many people use the word “confusion,” but what is the meaning of confusion?
Satsangee: Unclarity.
Vinamrtaa: Not knowing.
Swami ji: Yes. But for a person who, in reality, is not born, where does the unclarity come?
Satsangee: Unclarity will come when you question his birth or his death.
Swami ji: But he has to take birth.
Satsangee: Yes.
Swami ji: So if confusion has to take place because of birth, then why is birth not confusion? Birth is confusion! You can also use another word, “illusion,” or another word, “delusion.” All human beings are nothing but confusion, yet they have to continue living. They were not there, and now they continue living. So why shouldn’t there be confusion? They were not there, and they are living. In the rope there was no snake, but now a snake is being lived, and the child is afraid. The human being is afraid that “This snake will die, so I will die.” Deception will die! And he is very happy in it.
A person can speak, but he thinks that confusion does not allow him to speak. So now Vinamrtaa must be thinking, “What can I say now?” You can say anything, because there is no division. When you are asleep, you do not have to worry about what is this, what is that. And when you are not asleep, you still do not have to worry about what is this, what is that.
This is a situation of knowledge—and it is because of form. That’s all. Form will remain as it is. But if you have not given up form, you cannot speak. So you have to leave form. The flute can never speak by itself; but when the flute is sounding, from where did it become ready to sound? If Krishn is not there, who will blow the flute? But Krishn has been forgotten by the flute, and the flute is saying, “I am speaking.” And when somebody tells the flute that “You cannot speak without Krishn,” it wants to be quiet.
When it is Krishn who is speaking, then who are you? You are never a form! So if it is God who has made Mudita or Shuddhanand, why should they be attached to the forms Mudita and Shuddhanand? That is the situation.
Those people who are sticking to the form, they will die. Form was never there; so why should they die? Thus we meet in satsang, as human beings, with a person who does not claim to be a human being. And he is saying that you are the same as he is, but you say, “No, I am hearing only as a human being.” A dead man cannot hear. So why do you not know who you are?
Thank you.
Vinamrtaa: Thank you so much. That is so beautiful and clear.
Vishuddha Nath: You said a few days ago that the intellect is a naming machine, a forming machine. I thought that was so amazing, because we are the Knower before that confused intellect starts to create the illusion of the born. But in fact, Guru alone is, and in that knowledge I abide. Jai Gurudev!
Swami ji: When he said that Guru alone is, you heard, but you could not know what he said. He said everything, and finished with “Guru alone is.” But you have a sense which is human. This means that a child is a form, akar, in which the sense is ahankar. Ahankar means, “I am.” And if “I am” is not left, then you cannot say that Guru alone is. You can say, “Well, he is a Guru, so he sits alone. I can understand that. But where do we exist? We also exist. And how can we, or I, be called Guru?”
“Guru alone is” means earth alone is, mud alone is, in relation to the child’s army of names and forms; God alone is, in terms of the world of forms and names. But the moment vasana comes, the moment mind comes, the world is separate and God is left. Yet there are some persons who have reached God, and for them, God is there and the world is left.
Shiv Nath: Can I ask you something?
Swami ji: Yes.
Shiv Nath: When you were speaking to Marie about the Gita, it occurred to me that I never really fully understood why Krishn at one point says to Arjun, who is in a quandary on the battlefield, “Look, all these people are already dead. You do not have to worry about killing your relations on the battlefield, because they are not actually there”….
Swami ji: Because Arjun has declared war. What was the necessity for him to declare war, if he was not ready to fight?
Shiv Nath: Yes, yes, for sure. So, having already accepted the fact that he was a human being in the world, he was trying to reset an injustice by going to battle. So when Krishn said that to him, was he trying to say to Arjun that you yourself are not a human being?
Swami ji: Krishn wanted to say, Arjun, you are stupid! Simple thing.
Shiv Nath: Yes, yes! He’s totally confused.
Swami ji: That’s all. And Arjun will not understand, out of love for Krishn. So when Krishn says, “You are stupid,” Arjun will think that he is saying something good. And he will not budge an inch—because he was really stupid!
Shiv Nath: Swami ji, why would his love for Krishn prevent him from understanding?
Swami ji: Should I tell you the truth?
Shiv Nath: I think so, yes.
Swami ji: They both, including the Gita, do not exist! Including you, the reader. Vishuddha Nath said, “Knower alone is, Guru alone is, I alone am, Brahm alone is, Paramatma alone is, Supreme alone is, Paramevyoman alone is.” But you are a human being. You are hearing that which the scriptures are speaking, and they are confusing you. Better remain a worker! If you give a lecture to a carpenter, he will not be able to know what you are saying. So you have to know your status first. Your status is that you are a human being—for you.
Now Shiv Nath is quiet. He wants to represent some other status.
Shiv Nath: I just remembered that the last time I spoke to you, I said I am not a human being, and you said….
Swami ji: That is correct. You are never a human being, because you know it. At one time, you were not born. Why, then, have you become a human being?
Since it is not easy, we both spend time on it. We say that tomorrow, day after, tomorrow, day after, tomorrow, day after, it is just possible that in satsang, somebody will get it. And now Vishuddha Nath, a clear example, is there. But how would you know that Vishuddha Nath knows it? You will conclude with your mind that he is laying a kind of trip on you that he knows and others do not. Again, you doubt. That is Maya, vasana, mind, a human being.
The human being is so difficult that you cannot make him aware that Brahm alone is. So the elders are shouting out loud, “Brahm alone is! Brahm alone is!” And when you ask, “But who am I?” they say, “Aham Brahm! Aham Brahm!” Everything is being said, but only one thing conveys it to you: sleep. Then you become quiet. Why do you say that you are a human being? Why are you not sleep? Do you agree?
Shiv Nath: Yes.
Swami ji: You are sleep. Then why are you a human being? But immediately your mind came. That is Maya, vasana, which has been applied to a human being so that the human being should know, “I am alive, and I will die.”
When you hear me saying this, it is just possible that you can take the challenge and say, “I am none of them! Neither am I gyan nor agyan, nor Howard nor Ramona, nor Mohini nor Swami ji.” Why would you not know this, when they all die? I give you the example daily, that one hundred years ago millions of people died, your ancestors died, and you are still remembering them. Thirty-three generations ago, my name is there in a book of Rishikesh panda (traditions, wisdom). Just that. Human. As soon as you wake up, you are into Maya—not when you are here in satsang, daily, but you can’t cancel it.
So I say, cancel it! To Jayanti I said, don’t ask these silly questions, “I am Jayanti, who is that? Who am I? Who am I?” For millions of years you are asking, and after one hundred years you die. And you ask, “Who am I? Who am I?” Just be! Be the sunshine, that’s all. Awareness. No birth, no death—because you know. It is not that it is unknown to you. You know that “I was not born.” Why is this awareness hidden to you?
Shiv Nath: It is very clear, Swamiji, that….
Swami ji: It is clear? It is there?
Shiv Nath: Yes.
Swami ji: It is there, the truth is there. At the same time, mind is there. That is why the problem comes. Mind says, “No, it is not there.” Yet you agree that it is there. Why? I snatch the mind, so the truth is there. And immediately, when you have heard, I release the mind. Then it is your job.
But you become very comfortable with “It is not there.” For you, yesterday was never there. Only today is there. Yesterday was sunshine, or the day before was sunshine. So for how many years have you had a good time? Only now, you got married, so you have trouble. Many of you have had a good time for seventy-two years; so why is it, now, at seventy-three years, that some tax man comes and you have trouble?
When you are free, it shows that you have given up the world that was being held by you. How has this happened? Simple thing: satsang.
Thank you. Call someone.
Shuddhanand: Swami ji, the first time I came, I thought, this is a walking, talking Upanishad. You are the embodiment of Sat-Chit-Anand. One just has to look into your eyes, and we feel that Sat-Chit-Anand. It’s simple, really. So—the one Brahm wishes that he were many? Is this a joke, that I am only one, and yet I can see what seem to be all these forms? Brahm Satyam, jagan-mithya (“Brahm is Truth, the world is illusion”); Jeevo Brahm-aiva na-paraha (“The soul is none other than Brahm Himself”). How do we understand this, Swami ji?
Swami ji: There is a way—but I will tell you tomorrow!
We understand, as you did, all the time, by leaving ahankar. Akar-making chetan, akar-making consciousness, that is ahankar. This is the only, highest way, sarv-sreshth (highest of all). All other means will get you involved. If you can succeed in leaving the consciousness of ahankar altogether, you will not be able to make akar. Then you will come to know Sat-Chit-Anand. Sat-Chit-Anand, they are words. But it is Sat, Truth. It has no name and form. It is Chaitanya, no name and form, no jard or chetan. Anand, no name and form. It is Sat, Pure Existence, Existence alone.
So our leaders, elders, knowers, they gave something to the progeny: “Look, you have to live for one hundred years, and I am leaving. Before I leave, I say, Mangal Satguru roop nam hai, Mangal roopa. Mangal hai sab thor base jo hiye swaroopa. Bina base hiye roop hoi nahi kaun hu kaja, keeje jatan anek hoi, chahe pandit raja.” (The form and nature of Satguru is absolute bliss, and bliss is always the happiness-giver. If any devotee gets the form or nature of Guru established in his heart, then for him mangal, or bliss alone, is ever established. If the nature and form of Guru is not established in the heart, then one cannot ever feel happy. One may make hundreds of efforts, one may become a great, learned pandit, one may acquire wealth or even become an emperor, but he will not succeed in getting bliss.) I remember I used to sing it every morning, early in the morning, in front of Guru ji. Mangal. And now I have come to know, one hundred years after, when I translated it and transcribed the book—Raj Kamal did it, and I just checked it. In the year 1941, Guru ji said, “Now I am leaving, yet let me say once again, Mangal Satguru roop nam hai, Mangal roopa.” This was the last verse he wrote before he died. After that, he never wrote anything.
We daily say Sat-Chit-Anand, Satguru. My Guru ji had this communication to all his friends: “Love Satguru! Love Satguru!” And as a child, I thought that Satguru meant an old man, and I should love him. But I could not love old men. I used to love children, my friends, my chums, and I always heard, “Love an old man, Satguru.” But he meant Satguru—Sat, Truth; Guru, Chaitanya, Awareness.
That is the whole thing now. There is not much that we have to do. We have to eat our food, drink our drink, and live and sleep, and all that; whenever itching comes, then itch. And just enjoy! You will not have any effect from anybody when you reach that Sat-Chit-Anand—provided that ahankar is gone.
But check, the mind comes daily. Vasana. Vasana means that the world is truth, name and form is truth, the names and forms of the world are truth. Just because of ahankar, you forgot God. Yet Guru ji says, “Remember God. Remember Guru, Satguru.” And he did not say, “Forget this world,” because it becomes one. That is the way.
Ahankar. As long as ahankar is there, there is no possibility. When the sun rises, the night goes away, and when the sun rises fully, the night goes away completely. So when the sun rises, when knowledge rises, and you come to know, “I am Atma, Gyan, Atma Gyan,” all your ignorance goes away. It can be said in words, but you have to give up ahankar. As long as you are holding ahankar, you will die. When ahankar is not there, then disappearing or dying has got nothing to do with it. You were not even born, so why would you die?
So Sat, Truth, Pure Existence, remains forever. It cannot be bound by time. It is not born by time. It is not born by desh, or place, or causation. You hear this daily, but because of vasana, you cannot retain it. Vasana means believing in the truth of the world. Write it down, again and again, and make it sure: Are you believing in the truth of the world? Are you believing in name and form? You can check. Only in deep sleep, you do not believe in name and form. But then you do not know who made deep sleep, who made the fourth state, turiya. When turiya is there, then you can live as these people (Shuddhanand and Mudita) are living. They are free to come and go, and be in England, and see English people and all their tragedies, and all those things.
So there is no way for a human being who has ahankar to solve the problem. And it is not that all should solve the problem. It is only one person, only one, and that is you. So that is not my realm. It is you who has to know Sat-Chit-Anand. That’s all! By knowing Sat-Chit-Anand, ahankar goes away. By knowing ahankar, Sat-Chit-Anand goes away.
Thank you.
Shuddhanand: Tasmai Shri Guravey namah!
Swami ji: In satsang, automatically, from wherever you came, you become non-doer. In Gita, again and again comes the philosophy of non-doer, nishkam, nishkam bhavana. But you have no background. You have only kam bhavana, action.
In sleep, there is no trace of action. Yet wherever the emphasis is on action, those children will never know no-action. So we got all of you to train, like children. And look, we know vasana. Vasana, kamana, bhavana, kalpana, thinkana, hona, khana, pina, all those things, they are all in the born field. And without the born field, you are asleep.
That which is asleep is Brahm, Brahm alone. But when He acts, then it is the world. Then there is no Brahm—yet it is only one reality! Who did all this? He releases, like a spider, and withdraws the net. More than this, we cannot say anything. Only you know, and after having known, you say that you got it. You got Sanjeevani (that which brings you back to life), by birth. You have got a form, born. And you got Sanjeevani because it is hidden in that form. That form was not there, and is not to go anywhere. You know that ‘I was not born.’ Why would you not dig this knowledge and use it all the time? Sanjeevani! Because without taking birth, all these things will not happen.
You cannot become non-doer if, all the time, you are doing. But “doing” does not mean that it is bad. Even if you make a sandwich, you have to do it. So I am saying that non-doer is not born. That is called non-doer. You hear it and write it down, and you make big, big books, but you never remember—because daily, the moment you wake up, vasana. It comes by itself, it is not your fault. But if vasana comes, then you should know that knowledge may also come.
Knowledge does not come, because knowledge is hidden in the Knower. Gyata (Knower) is not gyeya (that which is known); Drashta (Seer) is not drishti (that which is seen), or drishya sansar (the seen world). When you come to know that Drashta alone is, Seer alone is, then you will come to know that sansar is not, world is not. When sansar is not, then Drashta, too, is not. In this way, there is only Pure Akash, Paramevyoman.
Thank you.