Parents have talked about name and form, which is why they are known by a child. Yet the child is such a small unit of existence that neither has he the knowledge of his senses, nor of his form-body, with skin and limbs. It is parents who are responsible for giving their child knowledge. We never expect a small child to know he has the knowledge of his eyes and ears, so he should say, “These are my eyes, these are my ears.” The child does not know them. Therefore, he is innocent: neither has he vidya (knowledge) nor avidya (ignorance). We have been taught by our parents and, if they were not there, by caretakers, supporters, and food-givers, by teachers and professors, and then, later on, by all human beings. They experience the child exists and his senses exist and function, although they did not function when he was first a child.
Thus, all the child’s knowledge is from outside. A child does not know inside or outside. Every human being ignores this fact and lives the life in days and nights based on the knowledge that he has been given, or which was imparted by his parents. Nobody can escape the knowledge of his parents, each one of you has that knowledge. You are in the world and know the worldly knowledge which has been heard by these ears and the scenes which have been seen by these eyes. A human being is a form with eyes and ears, and, of course, with the other senses, which include the nose, tongue, and touch, or all five senses. When the five sense organs are not, then there is no human being.
If some person dies, all the knowledge his parents have given him does not work. Why? It is not known why he dies, in exactly the same way as it is not known why a child is born. Now, a person like you, if he inquires, has to independently study that scripture which has been given to him through some information, or by somebody who said, “Read a scripture like Patanjali’s Yog Darshan, then you can know something.” In it the first verse states, Atha Yoganushasanam. The reader does not know what that means. Anybody who comes to grasp the meaning of Atha Yoganushasanam began to read the scripture to know what Anushasan, or the discipline of a human being is. The discipline of a human being is his senses, organs, and body. When he reaches Kaivalya (Self Alone)—suppose by chance, through reading, writing, describing, or through a friend, and all that—then what is Kaivalya? Human beings do not know Kaivalya, unless they sleep. When they sleep, why are a child, his parents, the world seen by his parents, and the multiplicity of things and forms, both sentient and insentient, not there? Thus, nobody as a human being will be interested in having knowledge, or the realization of Eternal Existence, the Self.
Then what to say? I have said this, unless somebody asks a question. Yesterday, Satyam asked something, and I told her, “You do not really know that, because you have never used even that ignorance which you carry by birth. So you should think something, reach some conclusion, and then ask.” All of you are sitting over here, as if it is Guru’s work to make you become free. It is not. It has been heard by you, “Ask and you shall receive.” But whatever you ask, you will get that. Ask for food and water, you will get that. A child has to ask for food and water, all have to. Even other sentient beings have to eat and drink. But a human being is the only poor species who has to ask. Birds and animals do not ask, so they are not the subject matter of ignorance or knowledge, they are left out completely. It is only a human being who asks. If he does not, he is also one of the animals. All of you came over here, and it is me who is speaking one-sidedly. You are hearing, but it is not making you free, because you have to hear with your ears, which are in the body. Guru says the body was never born, but you have been taught by your parents that the body was born, so you cannot be helped. Thank you. [Laughter]
Then live the way you have been taught. You received knowledge, and according to that whatever seeking for food and drink, the attainment of things and forms, the fulfillment of desires, and all such things you will be living. There is absolutely no possibility for you if you do not ask. Yet, you have come over here, I introduced meditation to you, and you began to do it. Thus, I say meditation will work. But if meditation would have worked, in forty-six years you would have realized Kaivalya. Neither sleep, dream, the waking state, meditation, nor your interaction with the world of people works. What is the meaning of “What works”? “Works” means that you should get that for which you are born. Nobody tells you, among parents and others, what you are born for. They say you are born for celebrating your birthday, for celebrating your life. Parents never even said you were not born, so from where will knowledge come? It never comes. …
Alka: Just before you were saying that the anushasan (discipline) of a human being is that he has the senses, mind, body, and this existence. Then how, being a human being and doing the practice, can one get out of that anushasan?
Swamiji: No, you cannot. That is why you have to listen to Guru, who says you do not exist as a human being’s anushasan. If you don’t listen to that, you will never get out of it.
Alka: What is true listening to Guru?
Swamiji: It is what I said: you do not exist as a person who is born. Guru says you are That, who is not born. Know it. You read, Atha Yoganushasanam. Continue reading it, and then—Kaivalya. Even if you say Kaivalya and read about it, scriptures do not help you. That is why there is Guru, who talks about Sat (Pure Existence), that there is only one Sat. How can you know this if you do not practise? First, you have to hear Guru, who says you are Sat. Even Satyam, I gave her the name Satyam (Truth) and she is very learned, everybody knows it, but nobody can say to her that she does not know anything. Guru says that whatever you are, use all your might to know what this world is, what this body is, what your relations with people are, and what you think.
Alka: That would not lead you to Sat.
Swamiji: No. Then you will come to ask Guruji, “You tell me.” Guruji will say, “Well, if you can’t hear me and know, I’m not going to talk to you.”
Alka: So when Guru says unborn you are, then that alone is.
Swamiji: That alone is. That’s all.
Alka: Then there is no question of how to get out of this or how to be That.
Swamiji: No, no, you are Free. A human being says freedom is there, but then he’s explaining freedom—that is mental freedom. From where did the mind come? From where did man come? Man and mind are the same. So when I say you do not exist, it means the mind and body are visible, but you do not ask why they are visible.
Alka: Are they visible because of that misleading power known as bhool (forgetfulness of the Self), or agyan (ignorance of the Self)?
Swamiji: Yes, then why do you accept agyan, or deception?
Alka: Then not to accept that deception is…
Swamiji: You are realized. That’s all.
Alka: So the whole world and the manifestation exist only because we believe “I exist.”
Swamiji: That is deception, that’s all. That’s why people die in the end and again take birth, then die again and again take birth. The circle goes on, birth and death. That is the world. One can’t get out of it—by himself. He can get out only by Guru, and if that person is a Guru who says, “Well look, at what time have you accepted that you are born?! You have to work for that.” Because you are not going to accept it, so he says this. He doesn’t mind that you are working hard and doing it, and not getting it, doing it and not getting it. Guru has already said, “You do not exist.” Why don’t you accept that? That is samadhi (the state of absorbed intellect). But in samadhi or deep sleep you do not know who you are, as the moment deception arises, you are again deception.
Padma: Swamiji, you wrote in my letter, “I is the only reference that you can know from me as the Knower.”
Swamiji: That’s all.
Padma: It seems that I is what becomes a human being?
Swamiji: No. If you are tuned in to “I,” you become tuned in. I has nothing to do with human existence. Then it is very clear for you that I doesn’t exist. … Yesterday, it was given to me to know that Jugal died, but I didn’t leak out a word. I am saying this to you because you must have seen that somebody died. If it is that somebody dies and somebody is like all somebodies, then all somebodies should also die. That means death does not exist. Yet, they say that somebody is born. Long before I came to realize and know, I behaved like this and all that continued, but I remained as it is. …
Jugal was a first-class person, a mahatma (one who identifies with Unborn). So I wrote a letter that the mahatma is no more, the body died. How does a mahatma die?! A mahatma never dies! But they will not understand. Still, I wrote a letter of condolences and said to them, “Don’t weep and cry. A mahatma never dies! My hundreds of naman (salutations) to the Mahatma.” Among all of you sitting over here, how can you say you die? You never die—you are a mahatma. But why do you not realize this? Because nobody tells you. Even if I tell you, you don’t listen. Mahatmas are sitting here, because I know they were not born. I continue saying, “Look, there is only one little thing for you to understand: you are not born. Then you are free. Keep eating, drinking, doing things, relating, and all that.” What do I mean? Human beings. Watch. How do you know you are a human being? (Laughter) That’s all. Because you have been injected with this idea, and you do not know what has been injected. You do not know that you are even changing. You look like Satyam, but when a little child is changing every single day, he is very, very whirling, and people say he is growing.
So two things I said: vidya and avidya, knowledge and ignorance. How will a child know he has eyes and knowledge? He is neither ignorant nor is he knowledgeable. But you cannot understand who he is. If I say Pure Free Forever, you don’t accept it. That is why you don’t listen to Guru. Anybody who listens to Guru, he is free. And he has not to worry whether to say to people he is free or not free. He has a body and people see the body, so he cannot say to them the body does not exist. But he himself has come to know that the body was never there. He should have, shraddha, that the Knower is there! The Knower is Guru, who knows, who tells you that the body was never born.
Somebody dies, and you are very sorry, very sad, and you go and burn his body, and at that time think, “Oh, I’ll also be burned.” A little bit of some kind of lice on your head begins to work, but after that, again, you wash your hands, and again the same thing. All these statements can be made for you to hear. Guru takes a chance. Guru never says “I am here only to tell you. Otherwise, I am not here.” You see him, and perceive that he seems to be very pure. Thus, practise!
As long as you are mind, you are man. I say mind, and I told you many times that mind does not exist. Then you’ll say, “He again started saying mind!” I say man, and a hundred times I said man does not exist, so you say, “Again you started saying man!” There are two bamboo sticks rubbing together: fire and no fire. When there is no fire, then the bamboo exists; when fire comes to the bamboo sticks, the fire is burnt, and then all three are not. So the trio—drashta (seer), drishti (seen) and darshan (seeing)—all three are not. But that is where a human being is made—prakriti (nature).
It looks like you nod your head this way and that way, so I should be convinced you have come to know. [Laughter] At that time, I should stop. But some people are not nodding their heads, so I look towards them. When you say, “Oh, I got it,” then I say, “Ram, Ram (God, God).” [Laughter] Daily examples. Somebody slept, somebody died, somebody meditated, somebody is eating, and somebody is drinking. Then a sane Guru says, “Look, you should become a good human being. That you can do. Continue doing that which all human beings like.” All human beings like to serve. Service. Because they know you are bound, it is better to serve you. Through service, at least some people are being helped. But what is the help if they remain bound?! How many dinners and parties you have given and served people, but they are again hungry, so again a party. [He laughs.] That’s all.
Milan: Swamiji, you were saying the human being has a role…
Swamiji: No, he has no role. He died—what role?
Milan: Earlier when you were saying that Guru is there, saying…
Swamiji: No, Guru is not there. Guru is there because disciple is there. He thinks Guru is there. Guru says, “I have never been Guru.” He says, “You have never been disciple, too.” That’s it.
Milan: So hearing isn’t happening on the level of the human being. What is hearing then?
Swamiji: Why should I speak when I am not?
Milan: Right. That’s hearing. Thank you, Swamiji.
Swamiji: He understood at this time. But again, quickly, you are born. Then he says, “Guru says you are born.” A hundred times Guru said, “You are not even born.” As long as you are not understanding Guru and his words, or he says the Truth and you do not grasp the Truth, then you are untruth. Untruth sits in front of Guru, thinking that Guru says the Truth! Guru will never say the Truth—unless somebody asks.
One day in the car Ruhi asked, “Swamiji, I know I am not really bound, but still I seem to feel sorry.” I asked, “Why are you sorry when you are not bound?” She said, “My parents are there, and I feel that my parents will die one day. Daily, it nags me. Daily, I am worried that they will die.” Then I told her, “Do you want to be released from this?” She said yes. Aparajita and Jaya were there. I said, “Tell me again. Do you actually want to be released from this?” She said yes. Then I said, “Parents were never born, so you should know they will never die.” Since then, she has not asked. Now, her mother came, Ruhi is serving her, knowing her, they are talking to each other, but she knows parents were not born—Guruji said.
How is it that this was known with shraddha (faith), not by applying the mind or intellect? Ruhi is a very highly evolved intellectual, but she accepted it. Who accepted? Shraddha. Faith. If anybody does not have faith in Guru, he will be like Milan. Guru said to him, “You do not exist.” His mind soon said, “No, no. Don’t listen to him. Aadi is about to go. Just send her.” See. That is where maya (illusion) is. Guru does not snatch the maya of everyone in the world, because he has created it. He speaks only for one person, Arjun. Watch in the Gita. Krishna, who is not there, assumed to be a Guru only to Arjun—to make Arjun free from Krishna’s own maya. He tells Arjun vehemently, “Look, I am concerned only about you, that you should be free from maya, because I am saying I have created maya for the whole universe and nobody can get out of it. Yet I have come here only for you.”
Arjun did not hear—for eighteen chapters! [Laughter] I have written a book of twelve verses of the Gita, thinking you’ll read it, but you never read it. Sitting over here, nobody has asked anybody, “Today, Abhaya read at least twelve verses of that Gita.” Shiv Nath, you read it. Such a big book of eighteen chapters I have reduced into twelve verses, yet you never read it. You’ll never get it. Yes, read and try to understand, and if anything arises in you, you can ask and he [Shiv Nath] will tell you. [Laughter]
Shiv Nath: It’s in the book [Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 9: Yogah Karmasu Kaushalam The Essence of Knowledge Spoken to His Students Precisely]. “Verse one. Shri Bhagawan said: Arjun, I want to give you the description of the manifest forms and that which is unmanifest. When you hear and realize this supreme knowledge, you will come out of your fear-stricken space as a human being. Verse two. Supreme knowledge is known as raj vidya, or highest awareness. It is absolutely pure and indestructible.”
Swamiji: These two words he has said: raj vidya is highest awareness, and indestructible. If you understand, the job is over: don’t read.
Shiv Nath: I think I better keep reading.
Shiv Nath. “Even though it is the king of all knowledge, it has been hidden up to this time. For intelligent people like you, this highest knowledge is very easy to know and attain.”
Swamiji: He made a condition: intelligent people like you. He didn’t say all others are intelligent persons. Yes.
Shiv Nath. “Verse three. Those who remain unaware of supreme knowledge, or raj vidya, keep holding the state of mind that knows there is birth and there is death. They are always concerned as to what the nature of birth and death is, and they never get out of this circle of thinking. Thus, they keep rotating in the wheel of birth and death. Verse four. Arjun, I as Krishna am constantly aware of the Source Existence of all, which is one without a second. The Source is forever. Manifestation, as the forms of the waking state, appears from the Source the way forms appear in the dream state.”
Swamiji: Now, if you are a thinker, think about it. But don’t think, because the thinker is bound. Read this again.
Shiv Nath: “The Source is forever.”
Swamiji: The Source is forever. I told Sukhendr, “Ever-present.” “Ever Presence” means forever. But your mind, your man, is in time and space. Then you will be reconciled, you will say, “What can I do? You continue saying ever-present, but I’m not ever-present.”
Dikpal: Once we hear that you have to know “I am ever-present, I’m not that fictitious being in time and space”…
Swamiji: When you have come to know, then that is over. Why do you have to learn again what you have already learned?
Milan: Swamiji, you were saying earlier that in the moment you might hear, but in the next moment, because of the power of maya, you revert back and lose faith. Then it seems like a constant is required.
Swamiji: A constant will be for a hundred years. A constant is required! [He laughs]
Milan: We don’t have that long.
Swamiji: So you are doing “constant.” Yes, keep reading.
Shiv Nath: “Manifestation, as the forms of the waking state, appears from the Source the way forms appear in the dream state.”
Swamiji: All of you know that forms appear in the dream state, and the next moment you cancel them when you wake up. Is this not for you to know? For whom is it to be known? It’s not for Guru. All of you know that when you sleep, a dream appears. It is not that some horse made it appear, or some devta (god) came to make it appear.
Pavi: Swamiji, are you saying that that which made it appear is the Self who I am, or that it did not appear?
Swamiji: I am saying it never appears. Then you will understand that you never appeared. The job is over. But the next moment, you are the same person. You will ask, “Here and there. Then what to do? What to do? What to do? What to do? He said I do not exist. What to do?” That is the type of thing.
Mahabir: Earlier you asked whether you accept that you are this.
Swamiji: No. When did you come to know that I exist, so I spoke?
Mahabir: So when you say that it doesn’t appear…
Swamijji: Why should I now accept your teachings, “You say”? I have never said anything. [Laughter] How can I approach you when you do not really understand that there is something in you, a human body or human being, while the child never knew he was a human being? Even this little thing is not known. Then why should I—who knows he does not exist—feel anything or do anything? I even relate personal things, but you don’t understand. You think, “Well, he must be very hardhearted that he did not rush to Jugal’s place.” Nothing happens to you. You think, “Well, he is a constant person. He just comes and goes, and all that.” That’s the whole thing.
You also have to reach there, that you do not exist. Then why does your mother exist? Jayanti’s mother exists who is ninety-eight years old. I have said many times your mother is not born even. If your mother was never born, then you are not born. You have come to me to hear this. But no. You want to tell me something, that “My mother exists.” And how many millions of times have I said, “The world does not exist, so how will you exist?” Then something happens, and you try to ask again, “But then why does something happen when you are not there?” [Laughter] Yes, they will not listen to anything, stop [reading the Gita].
Shiv Nath: Swamiji … when Krishna says to Arjun about the dream, what I understand is that Arjun should know if he realizes that the dream figures are not there, then the dream is gone. Is that correct?
Shiv Nath: So he’s saying that the waking state is no different, that if I know that I is hearing, then there is no waking state?
Swamiji: No, no. I is not hearing, man is hearing. Then you are still man.
Shiv Nath: So the whole relationship between Guru and shishya (disciple)…
Swamiji: It is not a relationship. Only Guru is there. Disciple is not there.
Shiv Nath: That realization which is there is nothing other than I. And that doesn’t take place in time and space?
Swamiji: No. Because that is Pure.
Shiv Nath: And Krishna’s maya is just time and space?
Swamiji: Time and space. Only Krishna says this. Arjun hears, and eighteen chapters after (18:73) he says, Nashto Moha…Twatprasadan… (My delusion is dispelled… by your grace…) “Because your words were there and my mind was hearing those words, I could not get out of it. But when I became completely surrendered and knew that I do not exist, then I am Krishna.”
Shiv Nath: Thank you, Swamiji, that’s beautiful.
Swamiji: So we only reach up to the uninvolved state. When you know this body is changing and going to die, you will remain free. This freedom can be the uninvolved state, but it is not that Freedom which I am speaking of. I am saying you never existed, which means I am saying Freedom exists. And Freedom is unborn, unchanging, immortal, blissful.
I will wind up by letting my Self know that the Self is one throughout. This means that if you do not understand the Self is one throughout, then we talk. The Self is ever-present, and each one among all of you has the power to know that time and space does not exist for the Self. So as long as the Self is in time and space, that is human. If in a human head the Self has plunged into time and space, then the human being is going to change, the Self is going to change. If the Self says, “I am a human being,” then he is a human being. And if the Self says, “This human being is me,” then the Self is the same human. That is the knot. If it can be released, then realization takes place. Otherwise, it is always a human being, who is going to die.
Since the Self is not a human being, why should it die? If to someone it is happening that there are world figures, forms, trees, stars, sun, moon, satellites, human beings, these are all changing. Then whatever remains is Unchanging. Unchanging and changing can never get mixed. Again and again it is said either you are Unchanging, then you and Unchanging became one; or you, the body, are changing, then Unchanging and changing became one. It is on both sides. That has been the essence, which means realization. A human being is being spoken to, not the I-Space. The day I decide “The I-Space alone is,” I will not come. This is also one of the methods: I threaten. [Laughter]
Aadi Shakti: Swamiji, you are the only being I know who can still speak from the ever-present Space. …
Swamiji: No, no. I never speak. [Laughter]
Aadi Shakti: I heard you say to Shyam Kishore…
Swamiji: No, I didn’t. You must have concluded Swamiji has come, and since then he is speaking—because you are concluding you are listening. No. You never listen to me, because I am throughout Maun (Absolute Silence). When I am not born, why should there be the conclusion I am speaking? Saraswati died, does she speak? Mr Plum Blum is not born, does he speak? [Laughter] You have realized, but because I come so you come, and you come so I come. It is a deception—but it is created. By whom? By that which is Me. You never say Me. You say this [body] is me. This way, we keep speaking. If one day you get it, it’s all right. If not, it’s the same thing. “The same thing” means human. Look, it is not a hundred years old—for millions of years it has been the same thing. But you do not take your own faith into consideration: each one knows the world never existed. “The world” means a very big thing. What am I saying? You do not exist. You know it. You never existed. Then why is ever-present dead?
I leave with a great sense of satisfaction that you heard me, and I expect that you will now retain it. Thank you. [Applause]