Gavin: It is becoming clear that the space of the Self has nothing to do with the intellect, in the way it is associated with feelings, doings, achievements, losing, gaining, or anything like that. My goal is, I want to know this permanently. Every time I wake up, I’m very familiar with the fact I am this body. With all your energy and darshan (Guru’s presence)—and perhaps I’ll check this with you—I’m coming to see the intellect fully, wholly, and to understand it is the Wholeness I need to put my attention on rather than what I am seeing. Is that correct?
Swamiji: That is correct. That is why confirmation is essential. Otherwise you are realized, but you will always say, “I am not realized” if it is not confirmed by Guru. Guru is the one who is only meant to confirm what you are: You. So he says, “You are.” If Guru is not there, you say, “I am this body,” and if you say, “I am this body,” immediately you will be afraid of death. You can understand that if realization is there, there is no birth and life—birth and life are just the same. Then there is no life and death. That is the Whole. The Whole means neither this nor that. First of all, to the children who are born and ask, “Someone should let me know what is this birth, what is this life?” we say, “You are thinking you are this life, but you are That,” which means, “Cancel this.” But when you say, “If That is there and this is cancelled, then That remains,” then I’ll say, “Cancel That also.” When That and this are cancelled, whatever remains is the Whole.
I quite often take him to be here in the seat, because he thinks Stephen [Gavin’s father] died, but I say to him that Stephen never died. He saw that Stephen was and Stephen died. That was the waking state illusion. If the waking state is not, then there is deep sleep. If it is deep sleep, then Stephen was not and Stephen is now not—and Stephen was and Stephen is still now. So I can say that born is and born is not. When I say born is, you say it is real. When I say born is not, then you say Unborn is real. When I say born and Unborn both are not there, that is the Self.
If that is matured, then you can freely go anywhere. You can get married, if you like. She will be happy, you will be happy, mummy will be happy. And if you don’t, then you will be happy and mummy will be happy. That is where you have to reach. So this is a very special place. Why? Because I am there. [Applause] And I am that who is never there. [Laughter] This is a confusion. Arjun says, “Krishna, how should I think you are not there? My eyes see you.” He is depending on his eyes. Krishna says, “Can you close the eyes?” He closes the eyes. Then Arjun says, “I’m closing the eyes, but I still know you are there.” Why? The mental eye is there. “Mental eye” means illusion is there. If the mind is not there, only then can you be the Whole. When the mind came, then you came: you are born.
Gavin: So Swamiji, mind…
Swamiji: Is man.
Gavin: Is man. And is the form of birth and death.
Swamiji: Yes, is the form of birth and death.
Gavin: And the whole work is not to get rid of the mind, but simply to realize that “I am.”
Swamiji: That’s all. I. Only I. The moment “am” becomes, you will become man. If you are I then you will say, “It’s alright. What’s wrong with man?” Because with man you came to know I.
Gavin: Then there’s no meaning for…
Swamiji: Yes, there is no meaning. Thank you.
Gavin: Thank you.
Swamiji: Anybody else take a chance to say something. Yes, come. [Brian comes] What are we doing? We are maturing. That maturity does not take place because you become a human being. Now, when I said “a human being,” I made you a human being. But I said “You.” If you pay attention on “You,” you are not a human Jaya. But if you pay attention on Jaya, then you are not You. Go ahead.
Brian: Thank you for the opportunity.
Swamiji: Oh, it’s not Jaya, it’s something else. [Laughter] I saw his back, so I said Jaya came. It is that illusion. So illusion is being explained, that illusion should not be and then you are realized. Then you are realized: then man is not, illusion is not. When man is, mind is, and illusion is, then all three are there—drishta, drishti, and drishya, or seer, seeing power, and seen. This is human. A human being is supposed to remain drishta, drishti, and drishya. Realization is Self, Atma—that Atma which is neither one nor a second, or is one without a second. If you say one is there, then without a second is gone. When you say, “I am one,” and if you say, “A second,” then one is gone. So “without” is good, “without” cancels one and a second. Whatever remains without, that is the Self. We are reaching it, because I talk Siddhant, the Principle. What is the Principle?
Dikpal: That which always is and is neither this nor that…
Swamiji: Perfect. That’s all. Neither this nor that, then that is the Principle, that is Siddhant. But see, a human being says either this or that. He cannot get out of it. When, suppose, you got out of it, it is not that these many people have not gotten out of it; each has gotten out of it. That shows That alone is. When you say, “That alone is,” then a man is going to consider, “That alone is, then this is not,” whereas alone, kayval, is describing that I. That’s all. Now I is he, and I is he. So he is I, and he is I. Why can I not be understood? Because of the human illusion. Human vision is illusion. A human is sthul, gross, and subtle, so the subtle mind is also illusion. If illusion is to go, then neither the mind is there nor the outer side, a man, is there. You say something.
Brian: In the human experience it seems that there is a discomfort, an uneasiness, that gets developed. So I put my attention more and more on deidentification. I read an RF last night with some friends about identification and deidentification. You clearly state that the deidentified state is where freedom lies.
Swamiji: No. I say that to you, who are identified with this. To cancel this, I say, “Identify with That.” But when you say, “I am identifying with That,” then That should also go. So both identification and deidentification are not. But a human being identifies with either this or That. So first we say you are That. Then he cancels this—but he retains That. If he retains That, then this is also retained. When this is not and That is not, whatever remains does not fall in any category of the description of a human being.
Brian: How does one remove the uneasiness that happens in this nervous system of a human while I’m getting to the place of neither this nor That?
Swamiji: No, it is not to go. Uneasiness is a must as long as you are a born human being. And you know it. Why should you know when I say you are Unborn? I am cancelling your born by saying Unborn. But I am making you Unborn. Then you are again caught. So I’ll say Unborn is also not. Then there is neither born nor Unborn.
Dikpal: Swamiji, what would be the catch or bondage in the Unborn state?
Swamiji: Unborn is also illusion, and born is also illusion. So illusion should go away.
Dikpal: What is illusory about the state of Unborn?
Swamiji: Unborn is an illusory state.
Dikpal: In other words, just the word, the concept.
Swamiji: The concept—you meant illusion is accepting concept. There is no concept, neither of That nor of this. In this way, concept is cancelled. You are a human being, so you want to figure out a concept, a concept of That. “Swamiji, my concept is That, then That I am.” I say, “No, cancel concept.” Then you say, ” I am this.” I answer, “No, this concept is also not.” [Laughter] Concept has to be cancelled. Concept is illusion.
Dikpal: I gather that the only efficacy of words is to lead beyond the words, because any words, even “I am Pure Free Forever,” is just another concept.
Swamiji: You will not be able to speak if you leave words.
Dikpal: I can speak, but I must not put reality onto the words that are spoken
Swamiji: Then you are into unreality.
Dikpal: No, I’m into the real Reality if I don’t think any concept or word is real.
Swamiji: Then that real Reality is neither reality nor unreality.
Aatma: Swamiji, it seems that you are describing the space that is free of that which makes something this or that.
Swamiji: You are right. Free. I am describing Free. You try to explain Free.
Aatma: I could never do it the way you do.
Brian: Clearly where you are pointing to is my mind, which takes any word that you give, or any word that occurs by itself, and holds onto a meaning as though it is a thing to be held onto, whether it’s Freedom, or Unborn, or whatever the shabd (word) and arth (meaning) are, rather than just sitting in a space…
Swamiji: Why are you sitting? [Laughter]
Brian: I’ll say being, being in that Space, where there is no shabd and arth.
Swamiji: That’s all. Yes. Being the Space—at that time we stop. Why? I conclude that you are knowing Space. But you cannot say Space is free or unfree. Because the moment you say free, you are again a human being. When you say not free, you are again a human being. A human being says either mind—bondage; or no mind—freedom. But I say both are not. If it can be understood that both are not, that is the Self, that is realization. Realization does not fall in the category of freedom and bondage. And a human being is the only species who can realize. That’s why we don’t talk to animals, birds, and insentient things.
Brian: You cancel yourself continuously in your words, and that creates a discomfort.
Swamiji: Yes, and the discomfort should also be cancelled. [Laughter]
Brian: What is this discomfort and how do you cancel it?
Swamiji: It is cancelled only in sleep.
Brian: Well, I wish to be awake and have it cancelled.
Swamiji: No, it is not. In the waking state you become a man.
Brian: In the waking state, when I’m walking on the road or interacting with you, then I wish to be…
Swamiji: No! You are not interacting with me. Because I do not exist. [Laughter]
Brian: I don’t wish to simply be asleep in order to cancel the discomfort.
Swamiji: That is wrong. Then again you are a human being. If you know you are in dead sleep, you are realized.
Gayatri: Swamiji, is that different than when you say in the waking state that most human beings are sleeping, which means they are not aware of that Self? So in the three states…
Swamiji: Where are there three states when you die?
Swamiji: And when you sleep? You are not cancelling the three states at all. Either you fall in this or in that, either in the dream or in the waking state. And both are a dream. I say that both are a dream, but you don’t get convinced. You say both. Both are not both.
Gayatri: So deep sleep is also not.
Swamiji: If deep sleep is also not, then what are you?
Gayatri: The Being.
Swamiji: The Being. That’s all. So the Being is. We have to use the word “Being” against becoming. But against becoming, Being is also not. Being or becoming, both are not.
Gayatri: So it is indescribable.
Swamiji: That is why it is indescribable. That’s all. If you want me to describe it, then you are a human being and I am a human being. When I don’t describe, then neither you are a human being nor I am a human being. That is the Self. Then we say, “That is.” If I use words, again you will accept the meaning of those words. When I say, “Close the eyes,” why is it while closing the eyes you are not using words? Yet you are still applying your mind that you are closing the eyes. The mind should be left. Then you say, “I was sleep.” You were not sleep, you were Me. That Me is still Self—call it Me, call it I. So we use the word “Self,” which means neither I nor me. Then you cannot find out where the description of the Self is. This goes on. As long as it goes on, it has to go on. When you die, then nothing goes on. Why should you not accept that you die—and keep eating, drinking, doing things, and interacting? [Laughter] But die. When I say Unborn, I say you died. But then Unborn is born! The moment you use words, you are not a child. As soon as a mother is awake, she is the mind and she sees the child. If she is sleeping, the child is not. If she is sleeping in the waking state, the child is in the womb, but the child is not. Now, all human beings are sleeping—a realized being says. But the one who is in the waking state cannot say, “I am asleep.”
Brian: I wish to understand…
Swamiji: I. You should wish to understand I. Where is your I?
Brian: No location.
Swamiji: No location. That’s all. But you wish that I should have a location. And you yourself have faith that I has no location. Then why uneasy? Thank you.
Brian: Right. Thank you.
Swamiji: Yes, Mary. This is being done for the last forty-six years. But how should there be maturity? Now there is the word “maturity.” Again you say it must be like some kind of jug which is baked. Earth is never there, so why a jug? Yes?
Mary: … I think about born, that Mary is born. Then I think of unborn, then Mary was not. Then I think if I cancel born and unborn, my sense is still that sense of Unborn, like Knowingness—but born and unborn can still be there. Maybe I’m complicating something?
Swamiji: You’re complicating. That sense is also not there. The problem is of sense, which you call consciousness. …You do not leave consciousness. Consciousness is illusion.
Mary: When I think of Unborn, that is still consciousness?
Swamiji: Yes, illusion, consciousness. In deep sleep, where is consciousness?
Mary: It is not there. Until that state is reached, that I am in deep sleep even while walking and talking…
Swamiji: No. You are in deep sleep.
Mary: No walking? No talking? [Laughter]
Mary: Until that is reached, while I am walking and talking…
Swamiji: You have come to know “Until that is reached,” then that is reached.
Mary: That is reached?!
Swamiji: Yes. That is reached. Then you can continue talking, walking, interacting, eating, drinking, everything. That is dead.
Mary: But I have not reached that…
Swamiji: If you have not reached, then you can easily talk. [Laughter]
Mary: Since I’m not knowing that, is the best sadhana (practice) for me to keep referring to deep sleep?
Swamiji: The best sadhana is you should remain awake life.
Mary: Awake life?! But then I’ll be more consciousness.
Swamiji: It doesn’t matter. Next year. Next time. [Laughter] You will not die: you will either have birth or death.
Mary: I’d like to be out of that wheel.
Swamiji: Then birth and death both are not.
Mary: Birth and death both are not. My understanding of that is just being Awareness, but as if it’s not in deep sleep, it’s aware.
Swamiji: So when Aware is there, it’s all right.
Mary: But isn’t that then consciousness?
Swamiji: No. It is Pure.
Mary: Okay. Awareness that doesn’t need any form attached.
Swamiji: No, that is Pure. It is called Pure Awareness.
Mary: That’s the sadhana. Thank you!
Swamiji: If you, you as a human being, have forgotten your You, you’ve forgotten your I. Now, try to find out I. Brian says it is nowhere. I accepted it. But when you say, “No, I am,” then I don’t accept it.
Mary: When I think of Pure Awareness, for me there is a location for it.
Swamiji: That’s a concept for you. You want a location, a concept. Location is in space. And space is not.
Mary: Pure Awareness is its own location?
Swamiji: No location, that is Pure. Pure has no location.
Mary: Pure Awareness is identifiable?
Swamiji: No. If you identify as Pure Awareness, you are a human. A human is in that between which is called illusion. And I’m saying you have not to worry about anything, except you should not accept illusion—not that you should not accept a human being. Illusion. If you do not accept illusion, then “form is” and “form is not” both are cancelled—if illusion is cancelled. Otherwise, illusion will make either form or no form, either birth or death. If anywhere you make birth, you are not meditating. If anywhere you make death, you are not meditating. … [Meditation]