Shiv Nath: … Several times you said to us that through our meditation we have become uninvolved, but we have not yet become free. I do see my tendency to equate uninvolvement with freedom. But I feel your words were to make me inquire further into what real freedom is. Could you say a few words about this?
Swamiji: … You are uninvolved and you are satisfied in it. But you do not know that you are not free. I say you are uninvolved but not free, because I know it. Why is it? Suresh has spoken of Aj, Unborn (Absolute Self). You do not yet use your intellect which is anti-intellect. For you are not even born, yet your intellect says you are with bones, skin, hair, blood, hunger, and thirst. You are not Aj, because if you are Aj, then you are not a man, you are not even born. Knowing this, you are free. If that freedom has come to you, it is all right. Then you have listened to Guru and listened to your friends. The beauty of it is you cannot ask. Suresh spoke of Aj, but you didn’t ask him what the result is of knowing Aj.
Shiv Nath: I think that Aj is that freedom which you just described.
Swamiji: That freedom is not there, so you cannot ask. Because even if you are not aged and do not have any division, such as the ideas of death and fear, yet you conclude with your intellect. You are somewhere sure enough that whatever you think is right. Everyone is…. Meditation has made you uninvolved, but it did not make you free. The reason, you never asked.
Shiv Nath: Swamiji, it seems that the uninvolvement in the thinking which you described as belonging to viparya buddhi (the intellect that is opposite in nature to the Self) has to take place for freedom to happen.
Swamiji: Yes.
Shiv Nath: Meditation, as well as your words and your direction, appear to be very important parts of becoming free from thinking. I’m wondering how to bridge both of those through the practice so that uninvolvement should become freedom?
Swamiji: I say it is possible. But at the same time I say it is very, very difficult, although it is possible. Why? Because not only one of you, every one of you, all the persons are wanting to be free. But they cannot become free. Why? They asked everyone, they did everything, they used all kinds of means by themselves and gathered things that they can depend on for freedom, but they are not yet free. I say two things. The first is that you need meditation. In meditation, you close the eyes and your world of worries is gone. The world is not there. You don’t see your body even. You don’t know whether your collar is going to this side or that side, or what happened to it. [Laughter] I mean, you are not cautious. So this much I know, that meditation will result in the uninvolved state. But not freedom. Why? Because you have the knowledge that you are born and you have a form, and if you have a form, the form must get old and one day disappear. So freedom does not take place in meditation.
Shiv Nath: Then something has to be added to that practice.
Swamiji: Yes, something has to be added. Your analysis is that you have tried for a hundred years, but it did not work. Yet you are not ready to listen to Guru, who says you are not even born. Then why do you worry about speaking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, walking, talking, giving suggestions to people about right and wrong, and getting influenced? As soon as you see people you become a person, because you immediately become aham (I) and they become twam (you), or two persons. So you are pad–padarth and prani, which means things, words and their meanings, and persons, and you remain involved in all of them.
Shiv Nath: So Swamiji, my expectation that I will come out of meditation and will be present, as if, with no aham and twam, is that an expectation of freedom?
Swamiji: It is an expectation, but it will not happen.
Shiv Nath: So should that expectation be dropped?
Swamiji: It cannot be dropped unless you listen to Guru. You have to listen to Guru, and Guru must be one who tells you the truth. And you should know that Guru’s words are the truth, then you can listen to them, otherwise not.
Shiv Nath: I totally believe that, Swamiji, yes.
Swamiji: No, you don’t. [Laughter] You convince me. Everybody convinces me. But you don’t listen. The common waves of the water can be together, they can be separate, and they can be high and low. This is human. A human being who will be free from this would be very rare among millions. Because the moment a human being sees anything, he becomes twam and he becomes aham, aham–twam, whereas he is not born—Guru says. Then where is aham–twam? But he doesn’t leave it. He speaks to Guruji so that Guruji should say to him again that “It is not aham, it is not twam,” and he likes this, but he will not listen.
Shiv Nath: What I’m hearing you say, Swamiji, is that this sense that I exist to become free, this very sense does not exist, this very person does not exist that wants that.
Swamiji: Yes, it doesn’t exist. It will exist only when Guru is listened to, otherwise not.
Shiv Nath: It will exist only when Guru is listened to?
Swamiji: Yes, when you listen to Guru, Guru says, “Well look, Shiv Nath, you were not born even.” He will not say you are unborn. He will say, “You think you are born, but you were not born even. You think the world is, but the world was not there. You think the world will remain forever, but Guru says the world will die, and all the persons are already dead.”
You know it. So not only to Guru, you don’t listen to yourself. [Laughter] That is where Guru speaks about it, and you can listen. But you compromise. You say, “Well look, if I have to live a hundred years, then I have to compromise and not listen to Guru.” Because if you listen to Guru, you will be free. [Laughter] You don’t want to be free. …
Shiv Nath: Swamiji, your words carry that unborn freedom in them.
Swamiji: Then you will become free. You are free now. But the next moment, the moment you will be identified, you are again bound. It is called bandhan. The very existence of a little human child is a bandhan, is a bondage. We have come to know this, so we tell you the truth. It is now up to you. Anybody among you if he can do it, it is all right. There are some persons—among you, there will be somebody. Among millions of people only you came, which means among millions and billions of people, hardly one in millions came….
Whether in India, Canada, or New Zealand, it doesn’t matter, it is identification [with the body rather than the Self]. And it is not that it is your creation, it is deception. You wake up in deception; you sleep, no deception. You conclude that Guru is saying to sleep forever, and you wouldn’t like to sleep. Guru is saying, “Well, leave this ahankar (the sense that who you are is your individual form).” That’s all. Leave the deception. Ahankar is deception. I don’t want to use the word “deception” again and again, because then I will remember it. [Laughter] It is not easy. So much power you have, and you have compromised to die rather than to leave your ahankar!
See. Ahankar. It is very simple. It is in your power to say, “I am not born.” It is not that you don’t say, “I am not born,” rather you say, “I am free now.” I am! You become this first, and then you say free. “You” cannot be free. But if you say I is free, it is possible: I Free. I Amaram, I Madhuram. Shyam Amaram, Shyam Madhuram. Shyam is I. But for you Shyam is a name. It is not a name. Krishn and Arjun must be names. For a gopi (one who knows they are Shyam), Shyam is not a name. It is not a colour even. The gopis just close the eyes and begin to call, “Shyam.” That you do. You meditate, and whatever you see, that is Shyam, that is your I. So without I, you cannot live. This is the situation, and it is known to someone that it can be done.
Shiv Nath: Thanks so much, Swamiji. Somehow through the magic of your words, you’ve taken the I that thought it is was bound and showed me that that I is actually Shyam.
Swamiji: That’s all. When you are free, who bothers how many clothes you have, how many shoes you have, how many friends you have, how many relations you have, how much land you walk? Nothing! Just free. That is possible if you are a human being. As a human being, if you have not become nirahankar (free from the individual I-sense), then you have done nothing—even if you may earn anything, learn anything, or become anything. It is the purpose of a human being to come to know that a human being was never a human being. Free. Thank you.
Shiv Nath: Thank you so much, Swamiji! …
Swamiji: Each human being, for the last many incarnations or many years in this lifetime, has practised his name and form. We can understand there must be some mistake that your name was not there and yet you get it. There must be something somewhere which you have never cared about, that “Why does it happen that I may see form with my eyes, but I never see name?” Then there will be only one question: From where did form come? At least you’ll be free from two questions [laughter], or where name came from. Then somebody might be hidden somewhere who will say, “Form never came.” It is—what did you go to Rajasthan for? Yes, a mirage. [Laughter] Because of the mirage, the water seems to be real to the thirsty deer. Trishna (desire). A mirage.
Now you can know that the deer is deceived—because of the mirage he sees water, but there is none. Yet you will not know that you too are much more deceived than the deer [laughter]. You think you are a human form. A mirage. Only one person is a mirage. And the mirage does not tell you, “I am making you deceived that you are just a body.” A doctor will say, “You never became a body, because the body will die.” A doctor can easily be approached, because scientifically he knows that if the body dies, then it must not be there, or permanent. But he will himself question, “Why do I not become aware of this myself?” Because a Guru does not tell him. Instead Guru says, You are doing well. You should continue doing this. You should never become Guru, because otherwise you will start teaching your child.” So everybody is happily established in deception. [Laughter] And giving lectures to others, teaching others! She is a yoga teacher. She must be teaching, “You should be detached,” but she can’t be detached herself. She can be only kind. Anyways, whatever she has come to receive in seven or ten days here, we have to send her filled with knowledge. If she can be working for herself, that will be nice. Otherwise, it is the same fate…. Even if one person does satsang, it is still a hundred times better than others. All of you are satsangees. Seeing your brilliance and your sacrifice, I too like to come here to satsang….
Nowhere is it written, “Ram, you have not to be Ram!” Rather it says, “No Ram, you have to do this and you have to do that. You have to attain vairagya (disillusionment), you have to do satsang, you have to listen to Guru, you have to listen to many Gurus, and then you will become this.” It is a very simple thing, “Why are you having your shoes? Sit down without your shoes.” Later on, “Sit down without your mind.” [Laughter] Later on, “Sit down without your body.” [Laughter] And last, “Sit down without anything you can use the senses for.” The senses have made you a human. We cannot blame others, like our parents. We cannot blame tradition. We cannot blame other teachers. We come on to your own senses…. Here, at least there is a joy that you can hear about your senses, yet you appreciate them. You continue appreciating them until all your teeth are gone. [Laughter]….
A human being is to be told only to be a gentle, good person, to attract love, affection, and people, and, whenever somebody dies, to write condolences in a very nice way and attend the funeral. This is what we can say. But among you, somebody is sitting in between all of you who knows, “Ah, listen to Guruji!” Guruji doesn’t care if you listen or don’t listen. [Laughter] Anybody who will listen to Guru, Guru emphasizes, he will be free! [Applause] It is possible. If you get a Guru, it is easy. But that easiness should not be relaxation! Otherwise daily you will relax, and you will conclude that you got it. You must get it! Freedom results in freedom. There is no other way. A human being is meant to reach that state of knowledge which is unborn, unchanging, undying. I have said these words. You heard unborn: you became free from birth. You have heard unchanging: you became free from clinging onto the changing. You have heard undying: you became free from any kind of fear of sickness, death, or destruction. If somebody says indestructibility, it is freedom.
This should appear in your actions. You should live that freedom, so that one or two persons can treat you as the ideal. That should be there. Otherwise, even at home you will be afraid of your own family members and all the things. No. Whenever sickness comes, go to doctors and get it removed. That is the most we can do. It is a car. When it is broken, we just go to the repair shop and get it done. Then the question of ahankar, of prestige, comes, the personality comes. We cannot actually tell you that the personality should not be there. You are there as a person, it is the least thing necessary to have knowledge—otherwise, knowledge will not come. A human being is in a situation that he can get the knowledge that he is unborn. He is not getting unborn, because daily he has to be pitted against necessary things. Confusion should not be there, it should be released. Confusion is called deception. You should not accept deception.
Rita: … You are always talking to that Being, to the Self.
Swamiji: No. I talk only to you, a person. If you do not have ears and are not a person, I cannot talk. So her conclusion is to be checked. It is the same conclusion as all of you have, it is not a new thing. This is one of the reasons I never tell you that God is everywhere. For you I say, “God, the way you think of God, is there. In your home, in your religion, in your heart, God is.” Now, what is that which is everywhere? Since you do not know everywhere, therefore I say, “You have a name and a form. Through name and form you see things everywhere. Leaves are falling, the rain doesn’t come, dust is going on and on, people are sick and miserable, some countries are attacking other countries, some people are running somewhere.” Such things can be talked about. But that which is everywhere is not talked about.
The everywhere we indicate here is that all of you have come over here to know that everywhere which you know. Each one knows everywhere. But everywhere belongs in time and space. This place is this place and that place is that place. You are coming from your country, you are coming from that “where.” “Here, there, and everywhere” is in time. That which is not in time cannot be talked about by a person who is in time. “I am in time, you are in time. I have occupied this place, you have occupied that place.” We talk such things. But she is expecting that somebody should talk to that person who is not there as a person. Nobody would like to talk to that person! [Laughter] They will not be near the door, near the curtain, near the river, near the space, and shouting.
When I talk, sometimes I indicate so that you should know you were not born. But I cannot say you were not born. So I say, “I am not born.” That you can’t interfere with. You say, “Well, if you are not born, fine, you are not born.” That is where a human being is. To a human being you cannot give freedom, because freedom is not by birth, not in between, and not when one dies. And human beings are birth, living, and death. That is everywhere. You can conclude and be free. That can be possible. But you cannot be taught. Nobody can be taught against his wishes. He can learn himself.…
You should not worry about change. Unborn has no change. You should not remain confined to the idea of death, because Unborn has no death. This is very clear to everyone when they close the eyes. In an instant, the moment you close the eyes, the whole world is gone. There is no memory of many people who have spoken, no anubhav (experience) of seeing people, of hearing people, and of the meaning derived out of that. Since there is no description, it is called indescribable. We stop. So you know. You heard me and realized that the Knower has no form, no name, no sky, no sun, no colour, and no form. Yet, it is all-permeating.
Guruji says not to get confused. I is I, and I am Gil, I am Vilde, I am Levor, I am Per Karsten, I am Astri, I am all those people who came. Yet, when I am in sleep, in deep, deep sleep, I am nobody. Then why do I have to make nobody into a body form, to make ego-intellect-mind, to make ahankar? No! Leaves are leaves, sap is sap, fruit is fruit. That is what each one of you has spoken. As I said, I like to express my happiness over the fact that all of you have spoken Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum. At one time I said, “I Immortal, I Blissful.” I only repeated this again and again, again and again. You have the capacity to hear it again and again, again and again. Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum. Amaram Hum Madhuram Hum…. [Meditation]
We have meditated. This is what we do daily. Because human beings taken all together have the capacity of different kinds of meditation—for a longer time, for a shorter time, for expressing some cough, some breath, it doesn’t matter. But we are always ready to know, What is that which we are seeking? We always seek that which is not born, because we are born. As against what is born, we want to know what is not born. We also live for many years, so we want to know that which has no years. We want to know that which never ends. I have told people it is the same Unborn, the same Everlasting, the same Unending. You have heard, and you also came to know.
